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Feedback on 3000 point Vraksian Renegades list

 Post subject: Feedback on 3000 point Vraksian Renegades list
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:19 pm 
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I have been working out a few different Vraksian Renegade lists for the upcoming CanCon in January. I am still deciding what to take exactly. I might even fall back on an army I have pretty much fully painted - my Dark Eldar, however after my taking them to both Castle Assault and Heavy Bolter, I heard that 2 other players would be taking Dark Eldar armies to CanCon.

Well here is the 5th draft for my Vraksian Renegades so far. Other lists have had lots of Artillery, or 5 Infantry Platoons, or paired Warhound Titans, or lots of cheaper formations like Sentinels, etc to give me the Activation edge.

This list is a compromise list. Not a specialist in any one type of formation or tactic.

Companies – 1475 Points
525 Points – Regimental Command Platoon – 1 Supreme Commander, 12 Guard Units, 4 Heavy fire Support Units, Hydra, Enforcer
350 Points – Infantry Platoon – 1 Commander, 12 Guard Units, 3 Griffon Mortar tanks, Enforcer
700 Points – Tank Company – 10 Malcadors, Hydra, Enforcer [BTS]
Support – 950 Points
400 Points – Heavy Artillery Squadron – 3 Minotaurs, Hydra, Enforcer
250 Points – Tank Hunter Squadron – 3 Valdors, Enforcer
100 Points – Sentinel Squadron – 4 Sentinels, Enforcer
100 Points – Sentinel Squadron – 4 Sentinels
Allies – 675 Points
325 Points – Alpha Legion Retinue – Alpha Legion Chaos Lord, 8 Alpha Legion Marine Units, 4 Rhinos
175 points – Hell Talon Squadron – 2 Hell Talon Fighter Bombers
175 points – Hell Talon Squadron – 2 Hell Talon Fighter Bombers

The list has 3 Hydras embedded with in formations, as well as 2 Aircraft formations. There is at least 1 long range indirect artillery formation, with a shorter range artillery upgrade added to a large infantry formation. A second infantry formation (redundancy), and they can sit on over watch protecting an area. A specialist TK/MW 3+ formation, a mechanized Chaos Marine formation to grab objectives, 2 cheap Sentinel formations to provide a picket force, be activation sinks and to make runs for objective when required. The slow moving heavy Tank company will take a lot of enemy fire, and give out a lot back in return.

Many armies will be flooded with lance, MW or TK weaponry, but if they do, they will have fewer and smaller formations. The Malcadors have 4+ RA, which against everything else means they have a decent chance of surviving. While they are trying to kill off the BTS which will be either sitting on Over Watch, or moving to get a better return shot with their range 75cm AP 4+/ AT 4+ battle cannons.

I know it is about average in formation activations (10 Formations) and sub par in numbers for a Guard type army (76 units), but there are a good amount of troops, heavy tanks, artillery, and AA. I can sit on over watch and kill off a lot of enemy teleporters, drop pod groups before they get in close (providing I win the strategy roll). A shield of Sentinels or infantry will deter some tactics, but not all ( Thunderhawk or Slavebringer delivered assault infantry).

I could replace the 10 Malcadors with 10 Leman Russ tanks and achieve the same affect and have another 5cm movement for the same cost. I suppose I just want to make it more thematic.

Well this is the 5th version of the list. I will trial test it, and maybe tweak it a bit more if things go bad with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Feedback on 3000 point Vraksian Renegades list
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:49 pm 
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It's a solid list and and good reasoning behind it.

I would personally downgrade Valdors to regular Tank Hunters (for me equal in results and 50pts cheaper) and remove AV targets from the 2nd Inf Co. With those extra points I would upgrade one Sentinel Squadron to an actual fighting formation.

I would run Leman Russes instead (favorite model ;D ) for the extra 5cm speed.

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 Post subject: Re: Feedback on 3000 point Vraksian Renegades list
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:24 pm 
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Thanks for the feedback.

The griffons in the 2nd infantry formation are there to provide a second BP attack, and let the formation hit targets that are a bit beyond their range or that can not be seen.

Unfortunately the Sentinels are limited to 4 units, and support formations can not take upgrades.

The Valdors vs tank destroyers seems valid, however I have only 10 Leman Russes, and only 1 of them with the longer barrel.

I could replace the Malcadors for Leman Russes (including 1 Vanquisher) for the exact same points. I have used the Malcadors in 3 test battles now, and the 5cms does not seem to upset the overall tactics. My placement of the Malcadors to get maximum firepower on the target formation seems to work.

My list needs the MW 3+ to take out expected enemy units like Wraith Lords, Wraith Guard, Engiines of Vaul (Cobras, etc), Revenant Titans, Dark Eldar Vessels of Pain and Barges of Pleasure. Talos pain engines, dreadnoughts, enemy tanks and infantry with RA such as terminators. The AT3+ MW could not target Terminators or Wraith Guard that are infantry, the MW 3+ can, and I still have 60cm range to do it.

I was thinking of putting the Griffons with the Malcadors/ Leman Russes as an optional upgrade, however they could not fire indirect if their formation moved. Since I intend to park the infantry on an objective, the 75 point upgrade only strengthens them, and makes them a more flexible formation for the role I intend to use them in. I just thought --- I could put some of my infantry in base contact with the Griffons, and give them the bonus -1 to be shot at.

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 Post subject: Re: Feedback on 3000 point Vraksian Renegades list
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 12:01 pm 
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Deb wrote:

Unfortunately the Sentinels are limited to 4 units, and support formations can not take upgrades.

.


I meant replacing the 2nd Sentinel Squadron with a formation with some "punch".

Deb wrote:

I was thinking of putting the Griffons with the Malcadors/ Leman Russes as an optional upgrade, however they could not fire indirect if their formation moved. Since I intend to park the infantry on an objective, the 75 point upgrade only strengthens them, and makes them a more flexible formation for the role I intend to use them in. I just thought --- I could put some of my infantry in base contact with the Griffons, and give them the bonus -1 to be shot at.


Ah great! if the plan for that infantry is sitting and sustaining, yes, the Griffons are a great upgrade. I usually use my infantry to advance from cover to cover, human wave style ;D

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 Post subject: Re: Feedback on 3000 point Vraksian Renegades list
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 1:11 pm 
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What could I use to replace the sentinels that has more punch? The Sentinels are cheap enough at 100 points for 4. They give me 2 extra activation sinks for just 200 points. I know they are LV, so every war dog and his/her mother can shoot at them. They only have a 6+ save, and pretty poor CC and FF stats.

They do have some benefits. They get the scout rule, so a 20cm bubble to help protect the Valdors or Minotaurs. Being Walkers they are less at risk if I place some in ruins, or other cover. Their range 30cm multi-laser is both AP and AT.

I could take Death Strike missile Launchers as I have them, however in previous practice games, they were the first to be targeted. I could upgrade the Regimental HQ to take Chimeras, however the Fire Support units would be left on foot. Dropping the fire support means I could then decide to not add Chimeras to the Regimental HQ, and instead have 300 points to spend. Perhaps add a Disciples of Xaphlan formation with 8 infantry units, and Enforcer and 4 Chimeras for 300 points. This means I have only 9 activations.

Alternately I could spend the 200 points from the 2 Sentinels Squadrons by add in in a Hellblade Squadron and thus have 3 Aircraft Squadrons, 1 for Cap, and 2 for bombing/Cap/Intercept.

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 Post subject: Re: Feedback on 3000 point Vraksian Renegades list
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2016 10:24 am 
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I'd drop the Griffons personally as they prevent your company from garrisoning, and I love to garrison infantry companies.

Note that one of the strengths of Valdors and Malcadors is that they're slow enough to garrison, starting the game on Overwatch. Have you tried this? I find they're effective.

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 Post subject: Re: Feedback on 3000 point Vraksian Renegades list
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2016 12:26 pm 
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No I have not tried that. Sounds interesting. And if I am going against those dreaded Dark Eldar with their Ranged TK and MW war engines, or those also nasty Eldar with their Cobras, Scorpions, etc, then the Range 75 battle cannons and range 60 MWs would be a nasty surprise.

The comment about the Griffins seems valid, but what to do with the 75 points? I can only see that replacing one of the Sentinel Squadrons with a Hellblade fighter squadron, will work out to an even swap, - same points, and the same amount of formations. I would lose 4 sentinels and 3 Griffons to get 3 Herllblades that only have a 6+ save and 2 x Autocannons each. I suppose the extra air formation means I would be able to have 1 formation on CAP, and then have the choice to intercept or strafe the enemy.

I will try that on Sunday when I play test the Vraksians in prep for the CanCon tournament.

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 Post subject: Re: Feedback on 3000 point Vraksian Renegades list
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2016 12:48 pm 
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Maybe swap a Hydra back in to the Infantry Company?

It does leave you with 25 points spare, but I do like having a lot of flak, especially as you can garrison a formation that has just a single fast unit (a hydra) in it.

With Garrisoning, most of this particular army list (Reg HQ, Inf Co, Tank Co, Valdors, 2x Sentinels) can be half way up the board on turn one, and with two formations starting on Overwatch you can make the enemy nervous of making moves on you on turn 1, giving you the chance to dictate the opening moves even if you lose the initiative.

Garrisoning will also help you overcome the weakness of your particular army list: A lack of speed. So taking objectives will be a bit easier.

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 Post subject: Re: Feedback on 3000 point Vraksian Renegades list
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:48 am 
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The Regimental Command Platoon, Infantry Platoon, and Malcador Company already have Hydras. I can only add Hydras to core formations, and I have 3 of them already. The Support Formations, the Valdor Platoon, The Minotaur Battery, the 2 Sentinel Squadrons, as well as the Allies (Alpha Legion Warband) can not take upgrades. Adding the 3 Hellblades will give me more AA, and they can even strafe the enemy if needed.

This might be the way to go.

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 Post subject: Re: Feedback on 3000 point Vraksian Renegades list
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:17 am 
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I have worked out a decent list, based on the new tactics, and unfortunately it only has 9 formations, but has 72 units.

Companies – 1625 Points
525 Points – Regimental Command Platoon – 1 Supreme Commander, 12 Guard Units, 4 Heavy fire Support Units, Hydra, Enforcer
400 Points – Infantry Platoon – 1 Commander, 12 Guard Units, 3 Griffons, Hydra
700 Points – Tank Company – 10 Malcadors, Hydra, Enforcer [BTS]
Support – 700 Points
350 Points – Heavy Artillery Squadron – 3 Minotaurs, Enforcer
250 Points – Tank Hunter Squadron – 3 Valdors, Enforcer
100 Points – Sentinel Squadron – 4 Sentinels, Enforcer
Allies – 675 Points
325 Points – Alpha Legion Retinue – Alpha Legion Chaos Lord, 8 Alpha Legion Marine Units, 4 Rhinos
175 points – Hell Talon Squadron – 2 Hell Talon Fighter Bombers
175 points – Hell Talon Squadron – 2 Hell Talon Fighter Bombers


All the support formations are really small and thus easily broken. How ever I was looking at putting the Sentinels in a position to hide away from the bulk of the enemy and move up a weak flank. I could use the Infantry Platoon with Griffons and a Hydra to provide a picket for the back in the rear to guard the Minotaurs. The Malcadors, the Valdors, and the Regimental HQ Platoon can all Garrison up front near objectives, and hopefully I can get my opponent to place the objectives close together, so my formations have mutual fire support.

The Malcadors and Valdors can be put on Overwatch first turn to kill off pesky Eldar/Dark Eldar Pop-Up tanks, or Marine Land Speeders, etc. The Alpha Legion can hide and move up using cover and do the thing they do best, move, shoot and eventually assault. My Hydras are spread throughout the army to keep aircraft at bay, and the 2 Air Squadrons can also be CAP/Intercept, and if needed make ground strafe attacks.

I know there is not much in the way of artillery except the Minotaurs, and the Griffons. The good thing is that I have no War Engines, so enemy space craft can not make pin point attacks against my army.

I will be testing this list out at the end of the month. Hopefully they do well.

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 Post subject: Re: Feedback on 3000 point Vraksian Renegades list
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:38 am 
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Personally I'd be tempted to drop the Fire Support and Griffons and grab some more Support, but Good Luck!

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 Post subject: Re: Feedback on 3000 point Vraksian Renegades list
PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 1:30 pm 
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Thanks. I have tried to work things out, however I do not have any more Hell Talons (175 Points), and the only thing I could get for 100 points is another Sentinel Squadron. I can not get anything to use up the last 75 points, so I am going to use the Griffons for 2 uses. Indirect artillery against distant enemy the Infantry Platoon can not reach (or see), and to assist them against enemy who get closer that they can attack. Oh they also allow me to protect (take the hits if closer) the Hydra embedded in the formation.

The Fire Support Infantry are a decent upgrade, and they make the formation that will probably be set on Garrison the extra fire power to deal with enemy. 4 extra units also makes the formation harder to break. If I work things out correctly, and my Tactics and dice rolls are half way decent, then my enemy will lose their activation advantage fairly fast, and I can then out maneuver them, or overwhelm then in infantry numbers and fire power.

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 Post subject: Re: Feedback on 3000 point Vraksian Renegades list
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:18 am 
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I have been painting up a storm, and have already painted the Alpha Legion retinue, the 2 Hell Talon Squadrons, the Regimental Command Platoon, a single Infantry Platoon, a Sentinel Squadron, a Valdor and a Minotaur Squadron, and my Blitz objective. There are also 2 Hydras, a Fire Support upgrade unit and a Griffon upgrade unit painted.

I have awaiting the painting process or partly painted, my Malcador Company, another Hydra, 2 more Infantry Platoons, 3 more Fire Support upgrade units, another Minotaur Squadron, a Basilisk Artillery Company, the 2 other objectives.

I have short listed 4 Vraksian armies for CanCon. I have the bulk of the basic formations for each list already painted. I have to play test the lists to decide on which to take. The lists include a low activation artillery heavy list, a high activation Infantry heavy list, and 2 medium activation balanced lists, one with an extra Minotaur squadron, the other with Alpha Legion allies included.

3000 point Vraksian Renegade Army list A (9 Formations) {65 units}
Companies – 1350 points
375 Points – Regimental Command Platoon – 1 Supreme Commander, 12 Guard units, Enforcer
275 Points – Infantry Platoon – 1 Commander, 12 Guard Units, Enforcer
700 Points – Tank Company – 10 Malcadors, Hydra, Enforcer [BTS]
Support – 1300 points
350 Points – Heavy Artillery Squadron – 3 Minotaurs, Enforcer
350 Points – Heavy Artillery Squadron – 3 Minotaurs, Enforcer
250 Points – Tank Hunter Squadron – 3 Valdors, Enforcer
150 Points - Flak Squadron - 3 Hydras. Enforcer
100 Points – Sentinel Squadron – 4 Armoured Sentinels, Enforcer
100 Points – Sentinel Squadron – 4 Armoured Sentinels, Enforcer
Aircraft – 350 points
175 points – Helltalon Squadron – 2 Hell Talon Fighter Bombers
175 points – Helltalon Squadron – 2 Hell Talon Fighter Bombers


2975 point Vraksian Renegade Army list B (11 Formations) {86 units}
Companies – 1350 points
525 Points – Regimental Command Platoon – 1 Supreme Commander, 12 Guard units, 4 Fire Support Units, Enforcer, 1 Hydra [BTS]
275 Points – Infantry Platoon – 1 Commander, 12 Guard Units, Enforcer
275 Points – Infantry Platoon – 1 Commander, 12 Guard Units, Enforcer
275 Points – Infantry Platoon – 1 Commander, 12 Guard Units, Enforcer
Support – 950
350 Points – Heavy Artillery Squadron – 3 Minotaurs, Enforcer
250 Points – Tank Hunter Squadron – 3 Valdors
250 Points – Tank Hunter Squadron – 3 Valdors
100 Points – Sentinel Squadron – 4 Sentinels
Aircraft – 675
325 Points – Alpha Legion Retinue – Alpha Legion Chaos Lord, 8 Alpha Legion Marine Units, 4 Rhinos
175 points – Helltalon Squadron – 2 Hell Talon Fighter Bombers
175 points – Helltalon Squadron – 2 Hell Talon Fighter Bombers

3000 point Vraksian Renegade Army list C {8 Formations – 67 units)
Companies – 2050 Points
425 Points – Regimental Command Platoon – 1 Supreme Commander, 12 Guard units, Hydra, Enforcer
275 Points – Infantry Platoon – 1 Commander, 12 Guard Units, Enforcer
650 Points – Tank Company – 10 Malcadors, Enforcer
700 Points – Artillery Company – 9 Basilisks, 1 Hydra Flak, Enforcer [BTS]
Support – 450 Points
350 Points – Heavy Artillery Squadron – 3 Minotaurs, Enforcer
100 Points – Sentinel Squadron – 4 Sentinels
Allies – 500 Points
325 Points – Alpha Legion Retinue – Alpha Legion Chaos Lord, 8 Alpha Legion Marine Units, 4 Rhinos
175 points – Hell Talon Squadron – 2 Hell Talon Fighter Bombers

3000 point Vraksian Renegade Army list D {9 Formations – 72 units)
Companies – 1625 Points
525 Points – Regimental Command Platoon – 1 Supreme Commander, 12 Guard Units, 4 Heavy fire Support Units, Hydra, Enforcer
400 Points – Infantry Platoon – 1 Commander, 12 Guard Units, 3 Griffons, Hydra
700 Points – Tank Company – 10 Malcadors, Hydra, Enforcer [BTS]
Support – 700 Points
350 Points – Heavy Artillery Squadron – 3 Minotaurs, Enforcer
250 Points – Tank Hunter Squadron – 3 Valdors, Enforcer
100 Points – Sentinel Squadron – 4 Sentinels, Enforcer
Allies – 675 Points
325 Points – Alpha Legion Retinue – Alpha Legion Chaos Lord, 8 Alpha Legion Marine Units, 4 Rhinos
175 points – Hell Talon Squadron – 2 Hell Talon Fighter Bombers
175 points – Hell Talon Squadron – 2 Hell Talon Fighter Bombers

I know I will have problems on some tables if there is not enough area terrain if I take the Infantry heavy list as they have no armour save. The Artillery heavy list has only 8 formations, and the artillery will be targeted first. Against Space Marine teleporting and Thunderhawk Gunship dropped Terminators forces, they are easily picked off. Of the 2 balanced lists I am not sure which to take. One has a decent back up infantry force that actually has an armour save, and transports to get them up to take objectives, while the other has a back up artillery formation in case the first is lost.

I know some armies will give my army a lot of trouble - AMTL, AM Knights, Chaos and Space Marine lists with Terminators and Thunderhawk gunships, Feral Orks, some opposing Guard lists, maybe Dark Eldar, Eldar and Necrons. I should be able to handle Tau, Tyranids, some Ork lists and Sisters of Battle.

Either way I have chosen my army and I have top see how it performs. Hopefully I do not place in the bottom 1/4 or nearly last place again. I also hope my match ups are a lot mare varied. I know why I faced 3 Titan Legions and 2 Imperial Guard lists at Castle Assault - (number of players and combat results from previous rounds and the Swiss chess system used to determine player match ups) but it still irks me that I only played AMTL and Guard over 5 games, when I had Space marines, Chaos marines, Tyranids, Tau, Orks (Standard and Feral), Knights, and Necrons.

With an expected 40 players, there should be a better chance for more variety in the match-ups. I have never played against Necrons, Feral Orks or Knights before.

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 Post subject: Re: Feedback on 3000 point Vraksian Renegades list
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:15 pm 
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I think you really need to look at having 2 units of Alpha Legions

Most of your lists are very slow and reliant on garrisoning/where your opponent places their objectives.

After I took my Vraks to Cancon last year - and did very well - a fair few players will be on the ball with Obj placing and will place your obj quite far back.

Also with only 5 games in 2017 instead of the 6 from 2016 Cancon will be using the Castle Assault scoring pack I believe, which rewards big plays and taking more objectives. You may find the Vraks a bit slow for this.

But regardless, all the best! I'll see you at Cancon

Myself, I still have no idea what I'm taking


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 Post subject: Re: Feedback on 3000 point Vraksian Renegades list
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:26 am 
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So a list like this might be better.

2975 point Vraksian Renegade Army list B (10 Formations) {80 units}
Companies – 1450 points
475 Points – Regimental Command Platoon – 1 Supreme Commander, 12 Guard units, 4 Heavy Fire support Units, Enforcer
275 Points – Infantry Platoon – 1 Commander, 12 Guard Units, Enforcer
700 Points – Tank Company – 10 Malcadors, Hydra, Enforcer [BTS]
Support – 550
350 Points – Heavy Artillery Squadron – 3 Minotaurs, Enforcer
100 Points – Sentinel Squadron – 4 Sentinels
100 Points – Sentinel Squadron – 4 Sentinels
Aircraft – 1000
325 Points – Alpha Legion Retinue – Alpha Legion Chaos Lord, 8 Alpha Legion Marine Units, 4 Rhinos
325 Points – Alpha Legion Retinue – Alpha Legion Chaos Lord, 8 Alpha Legion Marine Units, 4 Rhinos
175 points – Helltalon Squadron – 2 Hell Talon Fighter Bombers
175 points – Helltalon Squadron – 2 Hell Talon Fighter Bombers

I will have to buy another Alpha Legion formation just like the one I purchased before, that I painted up really nicely.

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