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Ok help us out with our zero sum game of epic
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=95&t=25514		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Gabus1 [ Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:14 am ]
Post subject:  Ok help us out with our zero sum game of epic
Ok so I got sucked back into epic through Ogre, and silentbob's "crack dealer" strategy of getting me back in. They showed up at my door with a bunch of free space marine models and said "you are playing."

Anyways, my common opponent is Ogre, who has a lovely chaos army, and despite many games, we run into the same issues.

1) Teleporting terminators: I cant defend against their drop, and once down, I cant do anything about them. Out of niceness, he restricts himself to one teleporting set, and one riding in landraiders, and even then I struggle.

2) I have started to surround my titans with "rings" of landspeeders who use their control to protect them from dropping on me. The landspeeders frustrate Ogre, who struggles with killing my warlord with anything but the dropping terminators. The speeders are not very fun for him, since I can have a billion of them, and he struggles killing them. Due to them being...well...flying spacemarines.

At the end of the day, we have an un fun game where I cant do anything about his terminators OR he cant do anything about my titans.

Help me out with another way for spacemarines to deal with teleporting terminators, other than flooding the table with landspeeders. I am still a noob with epic, (i only just started using the thunderhawk assault strategy)
Author:  Epaminondas [ Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ok help us out with our zero sum game of epic
Scouts
Author:  jimmyzimms [ Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ok help us out with our zero sum game of epic
Your friend should avoid them (I'm assuming these are battle titans). Seriously, most Titans are points sinks which is only exasperated by your large screening formations. I'd use air mobility to run circles around the other army to apply plenty of force to the place I chose. The Codex Marines list really is the Marine Air assault list so play to those strengts.

As to how to counter termies, how 'bout other Termies? ;)
All joking aside scouts are your huckleberry. They guard the target and your counter attacks waste the termies.
Author:  Ogre44 [ Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ok help us out with our zero sum game of epic
My problem is that a Warlord titan can dominate the table when deployed at the center point, it's also the BTS formation so is high on the target priority list.
Author:  Jaggedtoothgrin [ Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ok help us out with our zero sum game of epic
Short Answer: try not taking a warlord titan

Ogre is willing to avoid taking terminators, and yet you insist on taking a warlord? and then you complain that either he beats it, or he cant, and either way its not fun? so change your habits like he was willing to do, and see what happens
Author:  S'Cipio [ Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ok help us out with our zero sum game of epic
Ogre44 wrote:
My problem is that a Warlord titan can dominate the table when deployed at the center point, it's also the BTS formation so is high on the target priority list.


Use more terrain. If he's just standing in the center, there ought to be large, important swathes of territory he can't see.

-Allen McCarley
Author:  Gabus1 [ Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ok help us out with our zero sum game of epic
Jaggedtoothgrin wrote:
Short Answer: try not taking a warlord titan

Ogre is willing to avoid taking terminators, and yet you insist on taking a warlord? and then you complain that either he beats it, or he cant, and either way its not fun? so change your habits like he was willing to do, and see what happens


No, thats not accurate at all. The core problem for me is the terminators.

I started taking 2 warhounds. I get eaten by teleporting terminators on my blitz and on the titans.
I lose 4 games in a row, Ogre stops taking 2 units of teleporting terminators, I still lose because I cant stop them on the ground. (These are the big chaos blobs of them) this goes on for several more games of me trying to find an answer for the terminators.

I finally find a counter by taking a warlord, that has the firepower to actually fight back, and surrounding it with speeders so he cant drop terminators on it. The warlord dominates the table, and chaos seems to lack the tools to deal with it.

So if we use your suggestion, I go back to what prompted me to use a warlord in the first place, namely an inability for my marines to kill or defeat 12 stands of terminators. And I lose again. I need an alternative to the warlord to deal with the terminators.
Author:  Steve54 [ Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ok help us out with our zero sum game of epic
SM vs Chaos terminators
- you should get to go first more often than not with +1 on the strategy roll. Then shoot them with mutiple formations as chaos termies break easier and if in large numbers should hopefully have a telepoty blast marker
- take your own terminators With the lower strategy rating he has to place his first
- use scouts&speeders to screen your formations

Chaos vs SM Warlord
- chaos should have an activation advantage. Concentrate on reducing his formations until you massively out activate him the gang up on the titan with multiple formations
- strip away the screening speeders with shooting t1 planes are good at this then teleport with a large terminator formation and extras when the screen is gone
- avoid the warlord it is ineffective when doubling so keep away from it and in cover. Throw scouts and cheap formations at it to occupy it and restrict its movement.
-objective placement if the warlord is moving on to the 2 forward objectives in your half make sure the objectives you place are well away. Then you can try and get blitz and take&hold then save a formation to run and contest with the warlord at the end
Author:  Ogre44 [ Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ok help us out with our zero sum game of epic
S'Cipio wrote:

Use more terrain. If he's just standing in the center, there ought to be large, important swathes of territory he can't see.

-Allen McCarley



We were actually commenting before our last game that we seem to use more terrain that we see used in any of the battle reports here on Taccoms ::)

I think my biggest problem with the Warlord/Speeder combo is that my army doesn't seem to have any tools to really deal with the Warlord at range, and the speeders keep me from getting up close to it.

I'm also quite frustrated with the sheer amount of territory a unit of speeders can control, with one unit a very large swath of the table can be cordoned off. I've had issues where one unit of speeders placed behind and in various screening terrain has constrained/dictated the movement options for very large portions of my force while being virtually immune to counter-attack.

It seems to me that a force of nothing but speeder units could quite effectively tie up an entire table and prove extremely frustrating for an opponent to deal with in any effective manner.
Author:  madd0ct0r [ Sat Jul 06, 2013 9:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ok help us out with our zero sum game of epic
What happens after your termies engage the speeders? They kill them but get nuked by the warlord?
Author:  Ogre44 [ Sat Jul 06, 2013 9:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ok help us out with our zero sum game of epic
I don't tend to drop the termies near the speeders, they might take them out, but it's not an even trade as they are left sitting there with a big target on their heads.
Author:  Gabus1 [ Sun Jul 07, 2013 12:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ok help us out with our zero sum game of epic
Steve54 wrote:
SM vs Chaos terminators

-Stuff

Chaos vs SM Warlord

-more stuff



An excellent post, and so far nice to see the board actually trying to help rather than "LOL n00b, you sux0rs!" which you can get on other boards. :D

With regard to getting blast markers on the terminators: At best, I seem to be able to get 3 blast markers on them, but it makes no difference in close combat, they still get to fight with all of them. (2 units shoot them, maybe kill one)

My own terminator squads are smaller, and get eaten alive by the chaos ones which have more attacks. If I put a commander in them, and combo-charge with 2 squads, I have spent MANY more points than he has. It may be the right idea, but it seems...inefficient.

I am screening with speeders currently, thats working...

Ogre and I are just struggling with a game that seems to be really lopsided one way or another. By turn 2 it seems obvious who is going to win, and although we enjoy the game, it is frustrating. :{[] I am a longtime WFB and 40K player, I am still wrapping my head around how Epic is different.
Author:  dptdexys [ Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ok help us out with our zero sum game of epic
Gabus1 wrote:

With regard to getting blast markers on the terminators: At best, I seem to be able to get 3 blast markers on them, but it makes no difference in close combat, they still get to fight with all of them. (2 units shoot them, maybe kill one)


If your opponent is using Terminators to go after your Warlord use it or a formation nearby to engage them but make sure you FF and don't get in Base to Base.
Using the Warlord you will usually have outnumbering and possibly a BM advantage with the terminator FF hits going on shields and your hits having to be saved.
Using a nearby formation, with clever positioning, you should have the Warlord in FF support range as the Terminators have to get within 15cm to have a chance of CC'ing it.
Author:  Ogre44 [ Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ok help us out with our zero sum game of epic
FF attacks against the Warlord go against the Void Shields?
I would have thought that since they are part of the assault you would be within the Shields and the shots would go straight to armor.

Do you happen to know where in the rules it states that FF attacks hit the Shields?
Author:  Simulated Knave [ Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ok help us out with our zero sum game of epic
...In the text of the Void Shields rule.
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