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Feedback on 3k rulebook Space Marines starting List
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=95&t=21591		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  wargame_insomniac [ Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Feedback on 3k rulebook Space Marines starting List
Hi

Since EA came out I have mainly played IG, with a few games apaice playing with SM, Orks and AMTL. Given that I don't have a regular Epic opponent at the moment I have thought i should have a basic 3k force for both SM and Orks. For Oks I am doing Evil Sunz, for SM I am doing Blood Angels. I am looking to finish off painting some SM figures I started painting when EA first released.

I am aiming for a reinforced Battle Company. So starting with 2 Tac, 1 Dev and 1 Assault formations each with commander, 1 with supreme commander. I also have painted a Whirlwind formation and 4 Hunters. I am planning on adding Thunderhawk and SM Strike Cruiser, currently undercoated.

That lot totals 2,275 points. If I add Terminators and Land Raider formation that would take me to bang on 3,000 points.

How does that sound? Or would you suggest a better use of remaining 725 points?

(In time I will be looking at fielding this force using the Blood Angels playtest list, thus adding Baal Predators, and Stormravens. But for now I want the option of fielding it staright out of the rulebook to make it easier to play with/against new players).

Thanks

James
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Feedback on 3k rulebook Space Marines starting List
One thing from that list that I would avoid using under the rulebook points costs is the Land Raider formation.

Land Raiders weren't really worth it for me until after they went down to 350pts for the formation and also gained FF4+.

I'd probably take a Landing Craft or a Warhound Titan as part of that 400pts.
Author:  Dave [ Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Feedback on 3k rulebook Space Marines starting List
Nearly all of my SM lists are based off a Battle Company with Assault Marines subbed out for Bikes and Land Speeders. It's a great basis for an army and provides a lot of staying power (Tacticals) coupled with some good assault (Bike) and support units (Devs and Speeders). In terms of additions...

I never leave home without Scouts. At least one formation of those and a Land Speeder formation are my bare minimum, the numbers only go up from there.

For a ground pounding list you'll find you need to keep your activation count higher than your opponent's to do well. I usually aim to have at least 11 formations. Destructors and Vindicators do alright in our group but most other people on TacComm don't think they're worth it. The trick with SM tanks is to minimize the hits on them and use them in fire & support combos.

Whirlwinds tend to make your opponent spread out which is great for clipping assaults and messing with what they activate first.

Annihilators are great anti-armor units, but definitely qualify as a glass cannon. Land Raiders are the same but a bit more durable but a few more points.

Terminators are great potential threat units that mess with your opponent's deployment and movements. The number of times they've failed to anything for me is rather disappointing though. Hopefully you get better mileage.
Author:  wargame_insomniac [ Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Feedback on 3k rulebook Space Marines starting List
Thanks E&C I was thinking about keeping it simple for a starting 3k army, so although Landing Craft and Warhound would be cool, I think that will keep until I expand to a proper army.

Thinking about it, I might be better at saving T-Hawk and Strike Cruiser until later, to keep things as simple as possible for a new player.

That would give me 1,125 points to play with! If I did nt go for Land Raiders, then I have the option of Scouts, Predators, Vindicators and/or Dreadnaughts.

Thanks

James
Author:  GlynG [ Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Feedback on 3k rulebook Space Marines starting List
If you're in the UK why not use the considerably better balanced Epic-UK lists? You can print out copies of the relevant lists for new players and point them towards the page with all the lists on. I'd use them with people who never played epic before with no qualms.

2-3 Hunters should be fine for a 3k list, 4 would be overkill. I wouldn't take characters for every basic formation either, it'd cost to much. Though the lists are a bit different the Space Marine lists on the Epic-UK site might be worth a look at to see what works better.
Author:  wargame_insomniac [ Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Feedback on 3k rulebook Space Marines starting List
Thanks Dave

In time as i expand this army to around 6k, I definitely want to be emphasizing Blood Angel love of airborne assualts. So more Thunderhawks and also Stormravens, maybe SM Landing Craft.

2 units that SM opponents have used against me that I found very effective against my Imperial Guard were deep-striking Terminators, and Assault Marines in Thunderhawks. So ideally I would like to take them as they seem to add a lot of mobility.

Re bikes and landspeeders, I would love to take them in due course. But to start with I will be taking Assault marines as i have them already painted.

So assuming I take 2 Tac, 1 Dev, 1 Ass (all with commanders), 1 Whirlwind and 4 Hunters (spread out across other formations, how would you recomend spending remaining 1,125 points for a basic intro force?

Thanks

James
Author:  Simulated Knave [ Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Feedback on 3k rulebook Space Marines starting List
Define 'intro'? Are WEs and Aircraft OK?
Author:  Dave [ Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Feedback on 3k rulebook Space Marines starting List
I'm assuming that base cost already had a THawk in it? Given what you have, I'd got with something like this:

http://traitor-legion.appspot.com/choos ... ~24x4~22x1

So you're looking at Terminators, Annihilators and two Scouts to paint up.

Or, if you're looking for a good activation account advantage try TBolts instead of Terminators:

http://traitor-legion.appspot.com/choos ... 49~549~549

For intro games I'd stick with the former for a 3k game. However, the intro scenarios in the rulebook are great for teaching the game. For an aircraft intro game I'd obviously use the latter.
Author:  wargame_insomniac [ Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Feedback on 3k rulebook Space Marines starting List
Glyn

I want to be able to field a painted 3k rulebook force.

Once I have got that I can look at other options. Personally I won't be using the Epic-UK Blood Angels list as I don't like it or agree with the choices they have made. So I will be looking at Net EA Blood Angels list once I expand beyond 3k.

I have put 4 Hunters in purely because I have 4 painted. Likewise with the characters- if I need to save 50-75 points I can drop one if necessary.

I just need to work out what else I would need to paint to have a legal sensible starting army.

Thanks

James
Author:  wargame_insomniac [ Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Feedback on 3k rulebook Space Marines starting List
Simulated Knave wrote:
Define 'intro'? Are WEs and Aircraft OK?

Not yet determined.

When EA came out I was down in London. With a couple of guys in my then gaming group we started with the rulebook training scenarios in first week. Then on subsequent weeks we upped the game size to 1500/1800/2000/2500 before finally trying 3000 points.

That worked really well and allowed us to get to grips with individual units before adding new stuff. I doubt I would be so fortunate with any new players now- bringing EA to the MTV generation!!

So I guess it would depend on how easy it would be for new players to get WEs and aircraft rules on top of all the basic rules. What would you recomend?

Thanks

James
Author:  wargame_insomniac [ Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Feedback on 3k rulebook Space Marines starting List
Dave

That's a nice looking list- hope you don't mind if I borrow it!!

The only change I might make is to move a Hunter from Devastators to the Whirlwind fomration. From memory the Thunderhawk with Assault and Devastator formations worked well.

The only thing I would need to assemble is a Terminator stand with chaplain. But that would give me a nice simple painting target to get started.

Thanks for all the advice guys.

James
Author:  Dave [ Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Feedback on 3k rulebook Space Marines starting List
All yours man.

I usually avoid putting a Hunter with Whirlwinds now simply because the AA bubble is too static and often the AT shot is wasted sitting in the backfield while the Whirlwinds fire indirectly.

In a mobile formation you're usually able to protect your half enough with 2-3 Hunters while getting a few more shots with them as well, whether they be AT because you now have LoS or AA thanks do a flak rush after a AC formation came in.

Food for thought anyway.
Author:  Simulated Knave [ Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Feedback on 3k rulebook Space Marines starting List
I'd lean toward introducing WEs, then aircraft. Up to you, though. I find the aircraft rules to be much more distinct from the basic rules, and so WEs are a natural extension in a way that aircraft are not.
Author:  wargame_insomniac [ Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Feedback on 3k rulebook Space Marines starting List
No I see what you mean. I had started off with Hunter with Devastators. But I was thinking about how to make best use out of 8 transport capacity of Thunderhawk.

Mind you putting the Devastators in Thunderhawk means the loss of their 2 rhinos. Swings and roundabouts!!

Cheers

James
Author:  Dave [ Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Feedback on 3k rulebook Space Marines starting List
Devs and Assault loaded in a Thawk is definitely a big punch. You're looking at 8 attacks on 3 and 4 on 2, plus any characters, but it is all your eggs in one basket. Kittens cry when those things become smears in front of enemy formations instead of assaulting them. When you land them in the right place though it's a good feeling.
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