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Black Legion Army

 Post subject: Black Legion Army
PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 11:05 pm 
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Hi,

I fought a 2000 point battle last night with my Black Legion army against a space marine army (Grand Tournament rules). Apart from being a complete noob, I scraped a very narrow victory that was more luck than anything. I think my main problem was lack of transport to get my units into assault positions and really use the legions cc skills. Can anyone please advise tactics/army list (2000-3000 point) and just any general advice?

Thanks very much.

Mr Bob


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 Post subject: Re: Black Legion Army
PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 11:10 pm 
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Mr Bob

Please place up the list you took. It would be interesting to see what you took first.

Cheers..

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 Post subject: Re: Black Legion Army
PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:45 am 
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As Frogbear said, it would help to know what you used in your battle as a starting point to the discussion. In Epic-A, well IMHO opinion anyways, learning to use what you like to field effectively is more important then trying to create a 'Power Gamer Army' out of the list. So we need to know where you are going with your army befor ewe can really comment, and therefore help you.

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 Post subject: Re: Black Legion Army
PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:05 pm 
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Apologies guys,

Army used was:

Black Legion Retinue (Khorne)

Upgrades:
Daemon prince
2x Obliterator
Land Raider

Black Legion Retinue (Khorne)

Upgrades:
Chaos Lord
2 x Defiler

Raptor Cult (Khorne)

Upgrades:
Chaos Warlord
Daemonic Pact

Daemon Pool
Greater Daemon
6x Lesser Daemon

This was a 1500 point game, but we plan to hit upto 3000.

Thanks for any help

Bobster


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 Post subject: Re: Black Legion Army
PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:47 pm 
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1500 points and a Greater Daemon. That was really ambitious, especially seeing you could not summon him :D

It appears to me that you are looking to take a BL force in the same vein as a Marine force. Unfortunately they do not have the special rule (ATSKNF) to stand up to punishment like Marines.

1. At 1500 points, a drop force (drop pods) would have been devastating with that Daemon Prince
2. Potentially the use of scouts could have also been used to close with the enemy
3. Chaos probably have one of the better aircraft formations out there. At 225 points, they are well worth it.

The problem I initially see with your force is that it has no dedicated way of closing with the enemy without first taking some hits.

The other tactic is to take formations to hold objectives. Taking the lesser Daemons will help with this as they soak up the hits that would otherwise go on your troops.

That's as I see it. What was the plan with the force that you took?

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 Post subject: Re: Black Legion Army
PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:00 pm 
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The two legions were there to hold objectives and the raptors to close and use the deamons to attack. Being pretty new we haven't been using flyers or war engines.

Sorry to be thick but why couldn't I have summoned the greater deamon?

I think drop pods would work a treat.

Bob


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 Post subject: Re: Black Legion Army
PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:07 pm 
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Ah I see, thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Black Legion Army
PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:53 am 
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Thanks for putting the list up it helps us a lot, especially old farts like me whom have no imagination ::)

Starting small and working up into a new game system is always a good idea so no worries on excluding War Engines and flyers from your early games. In fact it is a very good way to learn the game. Most of what I am about to post will be for future reference because my advice IS to experiment with different formations and combinations until YOU find the ones you like. That said on with my overly long post >:D

Army Size........
For most battles you want between 2.5 to 3.5 formations per 1,000 points fielded in a 1,500 point game that works out to be 3 to 5 formations, you had three so no problems there.

Combined Arms.......
A well balanced force contains 35%-50% Grunts (Infantry), 25% to 40% Fast Attack (Bikes, Jump Pack Infantry), and 25% to 40% Support (Everything Eelse including War Engines) and this would be in points and not formations. For a 1,500 point game that works out to 525 to 750 points of Grunts, 375 to 600 points of Fast Attack, and 375 to 600 points of Fast Attack. The Retinues are pure Grunt formations, the Raptors are Fast attack, and the Daemons are Support (As they literally arrive to aide other formations in combat). While your army is a bit heavy in the Grunt category it isn't insanely over the limit so therefore your Combined Arms balance is Ok even if it is a bit Grunt Heavy (No need to point out the Greater Daemon issue at has already been mentioned).

Da Battle Plan.......................
In broad terms your basic plan was sound, but it also had a few holes in it that a more experienced player would have quickly exploited. Fast Attack formations (Raptors) are very good at taking ground because they often can use their speed to pick the ground they want to fight over. Hence they most often have the initiative by default. That said they are often dead meat if they are forced to stand and fight over a piece of ground, because their advantage lays in using their speed to gain the initiative standing still IS NOT what they shine at doing. Put another way, if they aren't moving the enemy CAN exploit their weaknesses, in most cases that is a lack of franged firepower. In the case of your army the Raptors will be able to take ground but your Retinue's inability to keep up with them means you will not be able to consolidate the ground the Raptors have taken.

Improving the Army and the Plan of Battle.....................
(1) For reasons already stated drop the Greater Daemon or improve your summoning capacity to allow the beast to arrive. My vote is to drop the Greater Daemon for a 1,500 or even 2,000 point army, you will get more out of the points saved getting other stuff.
(2) Drop the Oblitirators and Land Raider from your first Retinue and get Rhinos and Havocs making this entire formation Mobile. This will give you one formation that can consolidate a position the Raptors have taken.
(3) You only really need one formation, in a 1,500 point battle, to protect your objectives. Why? If you are attacking on one flank the enemy is going to be too busy trying to stop you to get at that flanks objectives. This means you only need one formation to protect the other two, one Rentinue (your second one) should be able to pull this off. (Remember we are talking about a 1,500 point battle here not a 3,000+ point battle.

Building on this Core Army................................
Truthfully that is going to be up to you, because as you play the smaller battles you will start to develope your own 'style of play' and start finding which formations you really like using. Once that is established then you are going to have to learn how to use them effectively in larger battles. If you run into a problem along that road the advice on how to improve it can be found here for free, now ain't that cool ;D

Anything can work, really....................................
If you follow the 'Army Size' and 'Combined Arms' advice, given above, then your Army will perform well on the battlefield once you have learned how to use it. My own Khorne Chaos Marine Army, lead by 'Jaldon the Unforgiven', has NO Daemons in it (They are beneath Jaldon's followers and belong only in the LatD), contains no aircraft (Only wimps would fight that far away from the enemy), and is built around Retinues and Bike formations with the belief that in your face IS the way of Khorne >:D

Yes this does mean I have handicapped my own army, but the fun (To me, at lest, this is itself is a compliment of the design of Epic-A) is that despite these voluntary handicaps the Army continues to win more battles then it loses. Knowing how to use what you have is more important then finding what one thinks (Or anyone thinks) is a power combination.

I hope this helps and isn't to rambling............
Cheers and good gaming


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 Post subject: Re: Black Legion Army
PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:03 pm 
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Dear Jaldon,

Thank you kindly for all your help - I will implement this in our next battle where I hope to roll out my squadron of Death Wheels (well maybe). Just a quick one, does the %'s you gave apply to Space Marines as well?

Thanks Again

Bobby


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 Post subject: Re: Black Legion Army
PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:24 pm 
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Also, note that at small point values the GT objectives are going to be somewhat skewed. The assumption in that scenario is 2-5K and the ideal range is really more like 2500-4000. Relatively small things can tip the scales pretty quickly at 1500 points that don't get so crazy at higher points (like using drop pods or a high ratio of war engines).


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 Post subject: Re: Black Legion Army
PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 7:17 pm 
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Thanks Neal - we are going to play a 2000 point game next time and I hope to head to the Cock soon to pick up some tips and to play some different games :-*


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 Post subject: Re: Black Legion Army
PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:11 am 
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For army size and combined arms the percentages apply to all armies. This is a very good baseline to start at for all players new to an army they are using and/or the game itself.

As you become more proficient with your army, and/or the game you may want to modify the percentages to better fit your style of play.

For example the Eldar will often perform better if they peek at the top of the army size, and sometimes a little above it. The Eldar also rely heavily on both fast attack and support formations over grunt formations, as the few grunt formations (Guardians) they do have don't perform well on their own (Alone the Eldar grunts aren't too bad on the defensive, and do pretty fair in firefights, but they have a serious lack of ranged firepower that hampers the 'all around' capability that grunt formations need. Therefore the Eldar have to make up for it by making the enemy fear more their fast attack and support formations while their grunt formations pretty much concern themselves with controling friendly objectives and securing enemy objectives that have been taken.)

On the flip side the Ork Army depends heavily on their Grunt formations, so an Ork Army will fall into the low end scale of army size and the high end for grunt formations. There is nothing wrong with Ork fast attack and support formations, except that they depend on numbers to make up for their poorer battlefield capabilities. With enough big warbands in the enemies face that opponent cannot afford to ignore them. This leaves the fast attack and support formations able to get in position to launch a series attack before being shot to pieces (Ork armor saves ain't that great).

I hope these two example help explain what I mean
Cheers


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 Post subject: Re: Black Legion Army
PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:31 pm 
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Thanks very much for that.

Cheers
Bob


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