Tactical Command
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Epic UK Rulespack Update
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=88&t=32841
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Author:  Steve54 [ Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:06 am ]
Post subject:  Epic UK Rulespack Update

From discussions at the GT of issues that have arisen at tournaments the following will be added to the rulespack. Exact wording still to be finalised and I'll update when finalised and added to the pack.

Zones of Control
Starting activation within Zone of Control
If any units from a formation start their activation while in the Zone of Control of an enemy unit then they formation has 2 options. It may assault the formation whose Zone of Control it is already in OR it may move out of the Zone of Control. If moving out of the Zone of Control all units must do so by the shortest route possible.

Assault into Zone of Control
When making an assault activation the attacking formation must enter the Zone of Control of the defending formation before any other enemy Zones of Control. The main affect of this is that scout formations can screen other formations from air assault by using their Zone of Control.

Wraithgates/Portals
A Wraithgate or portal is deemed to be a single point in the centre of the model used to represent the gate. The gate or portal can be blocked by an enemy formation placing one or more units on the point.


Independent War Engines
For the purposes of suppression and breaking via blast markers an independent war engine carrying another formation within it counts as being the number of DC of the War Engine ignoring the other formation carried. This does not affect assaults where the formations are counted as one until the assault is concluded.


Countercharges
When assaulted no part of a unit may move more than 5cm. This addresses the issue of War Engines, particularily Gorgons wheeling around and then taking their 5cm move which allowed them to move more than the permitted 5cm. War Engines which are assaulted but not pinned may still rotate in position to allow weapons with designated fields of fire to be used

Author:  GlynG [ Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Epic UK Rulespack Update

Good to see these!

Steve54 wrote:
Assault into Zone of Control
When making an assault activation the attacking formation must enter the Zone of Control of the defending formation before any other enemy Zones of Control. The main affect of this is that scout formations can screen other formations from air assault by using their Zone of Control.

Careful to word this correctly. Maybe add a line that an air assault can only land in a second formation's ZOC if declaring the two intermingled? Otherwise if an aircraft can land and disbark in both formation's ZOC then would this not enter both ZOCs simultaneously? The stated restriction in the first sentance of having to enter the defender's ZOC first would not apply if it was simultaneous so it could be argued formations couldn't screen. I'm not trying to be awkward, just wanting to get the language clear to avoid confusion in games.

Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Epic UK Rulespack Update

That last one reminds me of the old 40k trick of deploying a long vehicle sideways, then on turn 1 you move it sideways up the board, and rotate it 90 degrees at the end of the move. How to be unsportsmanlike in 3 simple steps.

Author:  dptdexys [ Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Epic UK Rulespack Update

GlynG wrote:
Good to see these!

Maybe add a line that an air assault can only land in a second formation's ZOC if declaring the two intermingled?

If they have been declared intermingled (which you have to do according to 1.12.1 before the move is made ) then they become one formation for the duration of the engage action so you would not be landing in a second formation zofc.

Author:  GlynG [ Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Epic UK Rulespack Update

Of course! I did say in the sentance you quoted they could land in the other formation's ZOC if intermingled. I just meant they should be prevented from landing in a ZOC of a formation other than their target as well, so that friendly formations can screen.

Author:  Ginger [ Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Epic UK Rulespack Update

So, when starting in a ZoC of a unit from one formation, a unit may not assault a unit from another formation (by exiting the original ZoC by the shortest route etc) . . . .?

This is a significant change, and potentially a considerable boost to Fearless units as well as Scouts, since they do not need to withdraw when broken. This means that formations that win against Fearless enemy can be prevented from assaulting another enemy merely by not Withdrawing and staying in contact.

It also provides a huge constraint to Titans; a formation of marching scouts could easily ZoC a Warlock, Gargant or similar battle Titan, preventing it from assaulting a more appropriate target.

Author:  GlynG [ Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Epic UK Rulespack Update

That is a very good point. The wording should be changed so that they have to leave by the shortest route, but can still assault another unit if they still have position/movement to afterwards.

Author:  Ginger [ Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Epic UK Rulespack Update

Steve54 wrote:
From discussions at the GT of issues that have arisen at tournaments the following will be added to the rulespack. Exact wording still to be finalised and I'll update when finalised and added to the e of Control.


Independent War Engines
For the purposes of suppression and breaking via blast markers an independent war engine carrying another formation within it counts as being the number of DC of the War Engine ignoring the other formation carried. This does not affect assaults where the formations are counted as one until the assault is concluded.


I think this goes slightly against earlier rulings by Neal on DC size back in the mists of time, while it also introduces some potential quirkiness. Consider an Ork formation containing a couple of Battlefortresses that picks up some other formation and transports them as well - what is the size of the Battlefortress? It will increase when carrying units from its own formation, but apparently not when carrying other troops . . . (The same is true for Gorgons, Haridans etc).

As far as I am aware, it was ruled that any troops inside a transport on-table effectively increased the size of the transport for the purposes of breaking by BMs until they disembarked. This allows the transport to do its job of delivering troops to the battlefield.
However Suppression is a different matter and can be argued either way, with aesoteric points about whether troops inside are actually ‘further away’.

Off-table transports are played slightly differently (at least in the UK), and are deemed to have temporarily disembarked any troops while the aircraft refuelled, so only count as the formation DC for the purposes of activation. So 2BMs will ground most air transports for the following turn. Obviously, suppression off-table is immaterial.

Author:  GlynG [ Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Epic UK Rulespack Update

The Battlefortress and Gunfortress have in their notes that they can't carry units from other formations, Gorgons or Harridans could, though it'd be rarely used in practice.

The Tau Manta would be a good example of a unit more commonly effected by this, as with it's 20 transport capacity it would be very hard to break when full if played that the troops inside counted. Personally I previously interpreted the rules to mean they would and was surprised to see this come up but I don't object to it being changed/clarified.

Author:  Ginger [ Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Epic UK Rulespack Update

I believe this may just be intended to cover off-table air-transports, unless someone can clarify the ruling.

BUT, this may also be in part a reaction to the THawk spam list, and this interpretation would also potentially cause confusion with air-transports that land on-table to claim objectives when carrying troops. This would be especially harmful to Eldar, Tau and Ork air-transports that are easily broken when on the ground . . .

I believe that particular list needs to be handled separately, rather than by blanket rules like this one :)

Author:  kyussinchains [ Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Epic UK Rulespack Update

Or you could just, you know, play better?

;)

Author:  flyingthruwater [ Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Epic UK Rulespack Update

Is there a new ruling regarding CAP or have I been being an illiterate fool again?

If a formation is on CAP at the end of the turn and you take them off CAP apparently they have to come onto the table from the entry point that you marked for them, turn around and head off again?

This is a new one to me. So when Dave parked a Hydra battery under my CAP and blew most of it away as they headed for home I was rather taken by surprise. Would make a Hunter fantastic as it could BM from the halfray line on turn 1.

I'd never heard this at any tournies so far so just wants to check if it was new or an old rule I've always missed (wouldn't be the firsttime, ha....)

Author:  dptdexys [ Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Epic UK Rulespack Update

flyingthruwater wrote:

If a formation is on CAP at the end of the turn and you take them off CAP apparently they have to come onto the table from the entry point that you marked for them, turn around and head off again?


Get him to show you the rule where this is stated, never heard it myself either....

Author:  dptdexys [ Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Epic UK Rulespack Update

Ginger wrote:
I think this goes slightly against earlier rulings by Neal on DC size back in the mists of time, while it also introduces some potential quirkiness. Consider an Ork formation containing a couple of Battlefortresses that picks up some other formation and transports them as well - what is the size of the Battlefortress? It will increase when carrying units from its own formation, but apparently not when carrying other troops . . . (The same is true for Gorgons, Haridans etc).

As far as I am aware, it was ruled that any troops inside a transport on-table effectively increased the size of the transport for the purposes of breaking by BMs until they disembarked. This allows the transport to do its job of delivering troops to the battlefield.
However Suppression is a different matter and can be argued either way, with aesoteric points about whether troops inside are actually ‘further away’.


Battlefortress', Gunfortress' and Orkisaurus have a rule which only allow them to carry troops from their own formation so cannot pick up troops from other formations.

Neal Hunt actually stated this, viewtopic.php?f=4&t=19601&hilit=transport
Quote:
Right now WE transports cannot be both formation transport and WE transports. It's one or the other - dedicated or independent. You have to choose whether it is going to operate under 1.7.5 or 3.1.3. It can never do both, so there is no need to determine which one overrides the other.

Any list that allows both attached and independent WE transports should have the same clarification on it as the Ork list with respect to Gunfortresses and Battlefortresses.

And no, that's not in the rules. It's a design determination that was made long ago because of the confusion and exploits allowed by attached transport carrying around a separate formation. Ork players were using fortresses to combine and split formations, leading to both lots of rule questions and a silly amount of unintended tactical flexibility.


Quote:
2. Is there any reason to have a War Engine as part of a formation and not remain Independant?

Yes. Attached WE transports gain all the advantages of 1.7.5 - move over units to board, embark/dismebark on subsequent moves, etc.. Obviously, it loses the independence of being its own formation and it cannot carry units from other formations, so it's a tradeoff.

WEs attached to a formation should follow 1.7.5 where they are not allowed to transport units from other formations.
Epic UK has made a decision on Independent WEs so as not to count embarked troops (from another formation) as part of the formation size when it is not taking an action .

Author:  ffoley [ Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Epic UK Rulespack Update

Steve54 wrote:
Zones of Control
Starting activation within Zone of Control
If any units from a formation start their activation while in the Zone of Control of an enemy unit then they formation has 2 options. It may assault the formation whose Zone of Control it is already in OR it may move out of the Zone of Control by a single, double or march move. If moving out of the Zone of Control all units must do so by the shortest route possible.


Not 100% sure if this is saying, under option 2, you can or can't take e.g. a marshall move action or engage move action directly away? I assume you can't. What about hold actions?

Steve54 wrote:
Assault into Zone of Control
When making an assault activation the attacking formation must enter the Zone of Control of the defending formation before any other enemy Zones of Control. The main affect of this is that scout formations can screen other formations from air assault by using their Zone of Control.


Is screening from behind still an exception to this?

Steve54 wrote:
Countercharges
When assaulted no part of a unit may move more than 5cm. This addresses the issue of War Engines, particularily Gorgons wheeling around and then taking their 5cm move which allowed them to move more than the permitted 5cm. War Engines which are assaulted but not pinned may still rotate in position to allow weapons with designated fields of fire to be used


Is it only allowed to rotate if in base to base contact or can it also barge?

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