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Epic UK Rulespack Update

 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Rulespack Update
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:58 pm 
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Not 100% sure if this is saying, under option 2, you can or can't take e.g. a marshall move action or engage move action directly away? I assume you can't. What about hold actions?

Actually that's an interesting point, what's the reasoning on the removal of Marshall?

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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Rulespack Update
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:12 pm 
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ffoley wrote:
Steve54 wrote:
Zones of Control
Starting activation within Zone of Control
If any units from a formation start their activation while in the Zone of Control of an enemy unit then they formation has 2 options. It may assault the formation whose Zone of Control it is already in OR it may move out of the Zone of Control by a single, double or march move. If moving out of the Zone of Control all units must do so by the shortest route possible.


Not 100% sure if this is saying, under option 2, you can or can't take e.g. a marshall move action or engage move action directly away? I assume you can't. What about hold actions?

You should still be able to take any action which allows a player to move out of the ZofC including assaulting another formation (as long as you move out of the ZofC by the shortest route). If you are forced to take a hold action then you have to attempt to move out of the ZofC (even if you have 0cm move).

Quote:
Steve54 wrote:
Assault into Zone of Control
When making an assault activation the attacking formation must enter the Zone of Control of the defending formation before any other enemy Zones of Control. The main affect of this is that scout formations can screen other formations from air assault by using their Zone of Control.


Is screening from behind still an exception to this?


Any situation where you enter the target formations ZofC first is still allowed, Epic UK are just not allowing players to break the rule by using entering a ZofC at the same time as a way of avoiding this.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Rulespack Update
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:29 pm 
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ffoley wrote:
Steve54 wrote:
Countercharges
When assaulted no part of a unit may move more than 5cm. This addresses the issue of War Engines, particularily Gorgons wheeling around and then taking their 5cm move which allowed them to move more than the permitted 5cm. War Engines which are assaulted but not pinned may still rotate in position to allow weapons with designated fields of fire to be used


Is it only allowed to rotate if in base to base contact or can it also barge?

I'd presume if you used the barge part you would have to stay within the rules and go directly towards nearest free enemy unit and not rotate/wheel to get the extra attacks as that would be the same as what the above is trying to stop (gaining extra movement).


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Rulespack Update
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:06 pm 
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dptdexys wrote:
flyingthruwater wrote:

If a formation is on CAP at the end of the turn and you take them off CAP apparently they have to come onto the table from the entry point that you marked for them, turn around and head off again?


Get him to show you the rule where this is stated, never heard it myself either....


It was something that he was informed about during a game at the GT so I assumed it must've been either something I've missed in the rulebook (time to get my fine toothed comb out I guess) or a rules amendment I had missed.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Rulespack Update
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:09 pm 
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Regarding the THawk spam list, this has always been a possibility ever since the core list was created, and there have been a few semi ‘apocraphal’ attempts at creating similar spammed air lists, most of which were quickly forgotten since few people actually had 12+ T-bricks (as they were then) with one Landing craft as the BTS, or some variation on a theme. Competitions were more gentlemanly etc and only the core lists and Swordwind existed. Ahh, fond memories . . . :)

Back to reality :D

The current THawk spam list is both valid and evidently very broken :- the player uses the long range firepower of the 6x-7x THawks to suppress any ground AA, then flies on with 5x TBolts to shoot up key formations. Rinse and repeat for two turns, and then claim objectives on the third turn.

Placing the THawks in the space 1/3 is a non-starter since it invalidates many lists that combine these with Titan etc. But I believe the simple solution is to impose a straight limit to the number of aircraft available to the marine player (this can be varied by list for additional colour):
Quote:
Note, as well as complying with the usual 1/3 space, air, Titan restrictions, Space Marines may only use 1x aircraft (Landing Craft, Thunder Hawk, Marauder or Thunder Bolt) per 600 points.
That gives the standard 3k list 5x aircraft, the 4K Britcon list 6x aircraft, which from memory covers the vast majority of past lists without resorting to other tricky rules.
If people want to relax this in the future, you can drop to 1x a/c per 500 points etc though I would not recommend going much below that point for obvious reasons.

What do you think guys?


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Rulespack Update
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:39 pm 
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I don't see how putting thawks & landing craft in the 1/3 invalidates anything. You can still run 2x thawks, 1x tbolts, 2 x warhound/1 x landing craft in a codex marine list which is basically replacing a single unit of tbolts in the 2 most common marine builds. However, this will be playtested, we don't want to jump right in there.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Rulespack Update
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:44 pm 
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Ginger wrote:
Competitions were more gentlemanly etc and only the core lists and Swordwind existed. Ahh, fond memories . . . :)


Like when Chris used to run 16 activation siegemaster armies where every other unit had indirect barrage?

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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Rulespack Update
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:49 pm 
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Initial post edited
Starting activation in ZoC - to any move action

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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Rulespack Update
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:56 pm 
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Ginger wrote:
Regarding the THawk spam list, this has always been a possibility ever since the core list was created, and there have been a few semi ‘apocraphal’ attempts at creating similar spammed air lists, most of which were quickly forgotten since few people actually had 12+ T-bricks (as they were then) with one Landing craft as the BTS, or some variation on a theme. Competitions were more gentlemanly etc and only the core lists and Swordwind existed. Ahh, fond memories . . . :)

Back to reality :D

The current THawk spam list is both valid and evidently very broken :- the player uses the long range firepower of the 6x-7x THawks to suppress any ground AA, then flies on with 5x TBolts to shoot up key formations. Rinse and repeat for two turns, and then claim objectives on the third turn.

Placing the THawks in the space 1/3 is a non-starter since it invalidates many lists that combine these with Titan etc. But I believe the simple solution is to impose a straight limit to the number of aircraft available to the marine player (this can be varied by list for additional colour):
Quote:
Note, as well as complying with the usual 1/3 space, air, Titan restrictions, Space Marines may only use 1x aircraft (Landing Craft, Thunder Hawk, Marauder or Thunder Bolt) per 600 points.
That gives the standard 3k list 5x aircraft, the 4K Britcon list 6x aircraft, which from memory covers the vast majority of past lists without resorting to other tricky rules.
If people want to relax this in the future, you can drop to 1x a/c per 500 points etc though I would not recommend going much below that point for obvious reasons.

What do you think guys?

Regarding the thawk spam list none of these proposed rules clarifications have any impact on it or are aimed at it. We are testing some simple changes to it and other lists hopefully in time for Full Scale Assault.

The rose tinted glasses seem to ignore the TRC siegemasters, near broken Swordwind book Eldar, various test lists that were allowed at tournaments and that the thawk spam list is a perfectly legal original book list.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Rulespack Update
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:43 pm 
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HaHa, not too rose tinted Steve54. LoL.
In the 10+ years I have been going to uk tournaments and contributing here, I have never seen a Marine list like this. So despite the potential temptations, there seems to have been a ‘gentlemens’ agreement not to adopt some of the more ‘beardy’ army builds - until now . . .

As for Swordwind, Chris took on the AC role of the Siege masters list after he proved it to be broken and effectively rewrote it to nerf it considerably; Sotec, Greg, Neal and others took a great deal of time and effort up to 2008 to redo the Biel Tan Eldar list (tho with a few mixed results IMPO), and there has been a great deal of other development elsewhere - but practically none on the core lists, with good reason.

SteveC, putting THawks and LCs in the space/air/Titan 1/3rd basically cripples a considerable number of lists other than the ‘ultra competitive’ warhound THawk style list; it reduces the very flexibility that the Marines are supposed to have.
So a player would no longer be able to experiment with Reaver, air cover and Space ship; planetfalling artillery to support a Reaver; and no form of air assault to support a Warlord (and yes I know these are potentially all sub optimal, though possibly fun to try). There are lots of other ‘funky’ things to try that should not be banned out of hand just because this one list has been found.

Not so long ago, Brumbaer was fielding 3x Whirlwinds with great success in the EEC, despite the collective wisdom of the forums, and there are other examples. Let’s keep the Core Marine list as flexible as possible by effectively banning this particular THawk spam list, rather than making a significant (and IMO detrimental) change to a key core list.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Rulespack Update
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:22 am 
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Ginger wrote:

Steve54 wrote:
From discussions at the GT of issues that have arisen at tournaments the following will be added to the rulespack. Exact wording still to be finalised and I'll update when finalised and added to the e of Control.


Independent War Engines
For the purposes of suppression and breaking via blast markers an independent war engine carrying another formation within it counts as being the number of DC of the War Engine ignoring the other formation carried. This does not affect assaults where the formations are counted as one until the assault is concluded.
ok Dptdexsys, thanks for thread resurrection ;)



Quote:
As far as I am aware, it was ruled that any troops inside a transport on-table effectively increased the size of the transport for the purposes of breaking by BMs until they disembarked. This allows the transport to do its job of delivering troops to the battlefield.
However Suppression is a different matter and can be argued either way, with aesoteric points about whether troops inside are actually ‘further away’.

Off-table transports are played slightly differently (at least in the UK), and are deemed to have temporarily disembarked any troops while the aircraft refuelled, so only count as the formation DC for the purposes of activation. So 2BMs will ground most air transports for the following turn. Obviously, suppression off-table is immaterial.

I am sure this was debated and agreed to be inclusive of the formation being carried, irrespective of whether the WE was Dedicated or Independent - What are your views on this?


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Rulespack Update
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:59 am 
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Ginger wrote:

Quote:
As far as I am aware, it was ruled that any troops inside a transport on-table effectively increased the size of the transport for the purposes of breaking by BMs until they disembarked. This allows the transport to do its job of delivering troops to the battlefield.
However Suppression is a different matter and can be argued either way, with aesoteric points about whether troops inside are actually ‘further away’.

Off-table transports are played slightly differently (at least in the UK), and are deemed to have temporarily disembarked any troops while the aircraft refuelled, so only count as the formation DC for the purposes of activation. So 2BMs will ground most air transports for the following turn. Obviously, suppression off-table is immaterial.

I am sure this was debated and agreed to be inclusive of the formation being carried, irrespective of whether the WE was Dedicated or Independent - What are your views on this?


It was agreed and is in the rules of 1.7.5 that units in the same formation being transported count for BMs and other things .
3.1.3 allows (independent) WEs to follow different rules to 1.7.5 and the rule does not state transported units count as part of the formation except when they dismount and only until the end of the action.
Suppression should be easy to work out when following the rules, are they in a position to shoot and thus take a BM for suppression (being on board a transport would not normally allow them to fire so would not be in a position to take a BM).


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Rulespack Update
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:53 am 
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I think the concept that lists can be broken, but no need to change them, as we will all play as "gentlemen" is absurd. The lists exist, and creating a winning list is a key part of the game. Play vs Necrons and tell me it isn't. (The next person whom questions my Gentlemanliness will face a morning duel on thoroughbreds with cravats on).
Some lists can be played in a eschewed fashion gaining an advantage, but when this advantage is too great (army of scouts in drop pods) either the list or rules need changing.
Regards the thunderhawks this gives a few options, change the stats, change the points or change the list build. Of the three, the latter is the only real option that will not change all other 'working' SM lists.
I think this is easily addressed through moving the thunderhawks into the air third, but, if that does detract from other lists, then keep the list the same with a "one thunderhawk for every thousand points" rule.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Rulespack Update
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:37 am 
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What is the rationale behind the Independent Warengine ruling? Apart from making many of them unplayable it has answered a question in such a way as to create way more!

What happens when the WE carrying other formations breaks? Do they break too? Dismount (if so when?)? Can a broken transport "ferry" unbroken units through ZoC screens? How do hack downs work? etc....

As far as I'm aware I'm the only person who has actually used Support Craft as transports at an EUK event, I did it at two tournaments, I didn't do great but didn't do too badly, i.e. the method I was using wasn't broken. It was relatively easy to explain how the thing worked. I had some specific suggestions for improvements to wording. The direction taken just seems totally left of field, not based on actual tournament experience at all!

From the DE list point of view, apart from the Executioner now being a really bad choice in itself it gives any list it's in a real headache on an AA front. If you take a Executioner you need the spacecraft to get the utility out of the thing, leaving no room for air cover, this was mitigated by the option of everything hiding in the Executioner which is clearly not an option any more. Being able to bump DC (for moral purposes) also meant you could use the most expensive unit in the list without it breaking all the time if you were prepared to sacrifice the use of another formation to garrison it.

As I said, a rationale would really help with this ruling, how is it intended that we sensibly use our Mantas and Executioners? Or are they just collection pieces like Emperor Battleships?


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Rulespack Update
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:35 pm 
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RugII wrote:
What happens when the WE carrying other formations breaks? Do they break too? Dismount (if so when?)? Can a broken transport "ferry" unbroken units through ZoC screens? How do hack downs work? etc....


As far as I can see:

1. Any transported formations wouldn't have taken any BMs from whatever broke the transport, with the exception of crit effects that might kill some of the transported units. Why would they break?
2. As per 3.1.3 they can dismount at the end of any move made by the War Engine, so would have to dismount when it falls back or wait for it to rally and activate.
3. Transported units aren't on the table to interact with ZoCs.
4. Hackdowns would only apply if the transported formation was also broken.

For what it's worth, this is how I'd already been playing Plague Towers ferrying other formations in NetEA Death Guard and it's not caused any rules issues so far.

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