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Accessible Epic to boost community and event attendance

 Post subject: Accessible Epic to boost community and event attendance
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:18 am 
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We all know that there are loads of Epic 40k plastics out there, but they simply don't have good enough units to be competitive.

Marine Land Raiders? Average, at best
Tactical Marines? Take one unit as BTS, I suppose - but need a Hunter
Whirlwinds? They are ok
Ork Stompas? But where is the Super-Stompa?
Ork Boyz? Ok without a transport as a BTS sitting on the Blitz, maybe
Ork Battlewagon? Less said the better

The argument I'm trying to make is that it would be nice if a pretty decent army could be made out of all those plastics out there, so that people can get those dusty old models that have been in their attic for 20 years and pick up the game again, or start an army from a purchase of cheap plastics from eBay.

Could there not be a project to make lists based on these models better, so people can try Epic without having to invest in loads of more expensive models from sometimes obscure manufacturers and retailers?

It just feels to me that currently an opportunity is being missed here.

Just an idea.

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Last edited by Monkeyboy on Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Accessible Epic
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:39 am 
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I think it's worth noting that a lot of armies now have substitutes available from places like Vanguard and Onslaught, and that while some of the old plastics are still kicking around on E-Bay, it might almost be better to encourage new players to be getting the substitute models given it keeps those companies investing in new models.

While it's more expensive than a 'bargain bin' lot on E-bay, it's also not that expensive (certainly compared to something like a 40k army) - you'd probably drop around £120 for a 3k army, which i think is pretty reasonable overall. Also, you actually get what you want rather than a random selection of stuff...


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 Post subject: Re: Accessible Epic
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:26 pm 
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RichardL wrote:
I think it's worth noting that a lot of armies now have substitutes available from places like Vanguard and Onslaught, and that while some of the old plastics are still kicking around on E-Bay, it might almost be better to encourage new players to be getting the substitute models given it keeps those companies investing in new models.

While it's more expensive than a 'bargain bin' lot on E-bay, it's also not that expensive (certainly compared to something like a 40k army) - you'd probably drop around £120 for a 3k army, which i think is pretty reasonable overall. Also, you actually get what you want rather than a random selection of stuff...


^this^

if people want companies like Vanguard and Onslaught to keep producing new models, then they have to support them, I know some folks HAVE to have the GW aesthetic (le sigh) but that's hardly an itch to be scratched by a bunch of monopose naff old plastic models from 15+ years ago anyway

You can make complete and competetive (and great looking) IG, Ork and Marine armies from Vanguard miniatures alone, Onslaught cover a bunch of other stuff.... if you want to play the game but don't want to spend any money then maybe pic another hobby? if it's about intro games, buy two armies of your own and loan them out to beginners?

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 Post subject: Re: Accessible Epic
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:48 pm 
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Sounds great from the perspective of committed Epic players, but I don't think that works from the perspective of those who don't already play.

Hook people then they'll buy lots of armies from these providers.

Tell people to buy models before they are hooked and they'll more likely start up a different system instead and not bother with Epic.

Most potential new players don't think like we currently do - we have to understand what they are thinking.

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 Post subject: Re: Accessible Epic
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:23 pm 
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Hunters are easy, chop on half off the plastic wirlwind launcher – fairly common modification you see around.

Tacticals work just fine as devastators.

You dont *need* a model for spaceship or pods

Predators can be made by adding cheap add on parts from shapeways to plastic rhinos, but i agree that is a barrier.
E40k ork gun waggon turrets on top of a rhino work for predD, can even add mk1 plastic battlewagon turrets on the side as sponsons. Plastic land raider sponson las cannons can also be put on top of rhino hulls.

After that it depends on exactly which plastic sprues people had. Plastic speeders and bikes are common. plenty of assault marines around too. Poeople may well have enough plastic termiantors for a formation at 3 or 4 per base.

Lack of thawks is the main limit for playing conventional competitive meta marine lists i think. Expensive second hand on ebay unless you take thunderbricks (yay!), fairly distinctive look – you either have to go for something very alternative, or use pretty sub-par proxys.

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 Post subject: Re: Accessible Epic
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:48 pm 
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Monkeyboy wrote:
Just an idea.


I like it :)

Here's the first Backwater project - a marine list using only the old Space Marine and Adeptus Titanicus boxed sets.

I think it's playable enough - it can't do all the fancy modern marine stuff with T'hawks and Terminators, but it compensates by getting larger formations and a small points discount.


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 Post subject: Re: Accessible Epic
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:18 pm 
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Accessibility was the reason I did these, FWIW:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/263188623588

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 Post subject: Re: Accessible Epic
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:31 pm 
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SpeakerToMachines wrote:
Monkeyboy wrote:
Just an idea.


I like it :)

Here's the first Backwater project - a marine list using only the old Space Marine and Adeptus Titanicus boxed sets.

I think it's playable enough - it can't do all the fancy modern marine stuff with T'hawks and Terminators, but it compensates by getting larger formations and a small points discount.



i'd spam nothing but devs ;D
Perhaps dial that back a wee bit to say 4 or 6 stands?

I'd stick in the thunderbrick because while FW models are rare and expensive, older metal thunderhawks are plentiful enough. They were also around since SM era so would likely be found, in various model incarnations, in plenty of legacy collections. I know you're trying to keep it to the original box contents but there's probably cause to loosen it up a bit. one could make the argument for WW (found in the 3rd edition sprues from the get go) and Predators.

I' also suggest naming it "Classic Heresy" or "Classic Space Marine" as there's a super active modern fluff heresy continuity and let's not unnecessarily cause confusion. Also Primarch's Heresy rule set is around as well.

2cents

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 Post subject: Re: Accessible Epic
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:05 pm 
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Monkeyboy wrote:
Sounds great from the perspective of committed Epic players, but I don't think that works from the perspective of those who don't already play.

Hook people then they'll buy lots of armies from these providers.

Tell people to buy models before they are hooked and they'll more likely start up a different system instead and not bother with Epic.

Most potential new players don't think like we currently do - we have to understand what they are thinking.


Given Central London has a reasonable number of 'newer' epic players, it might be interesting to see how they got into playing. Was it borrowing an army? was it buying stuff off Ebay and then looking for somewhere to play it? I think the key is finding out that first and then you can consider how to take them from 'i'm interested in giving it a go' to 'i'm challenging for the Championship this year' :)

I think it's worth noting though that there's not necessarily any need for lists early on to be particularly competitive. Opponents can afterall just tone their own lists down to make it a little less lopsided.


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 Post subject: Re: Accessible Epic
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:31 pm 
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That won't tell us who may have got involved, but didn't.

I probably have a few plastic armies-worth of models that are unviable, that I won't give to anyone as they would receive such awful kickings without investing.

As experienced players would not use these basic but reasonably effective lists, what is the harm?

Someone would start buy playing with plastics, get hooked, then invest in an army they were more emotionally commited to.

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 Post subject: Re: Accessible Epic
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:17 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
2cents


Accepted; Here's a v0.2.

Attachment:
backwater.pdf [89.14 KiB]
Downloaded 52 times


All core formations should be equally viable, of course. Any other imbalances?

It's meant for scenes like this:
Image
Giant war robots, stomping on the tanks and tiny supersoldiers of the dark future. Ah, nostalgia :)

I can do a few more with the Eldar Legion box only, or the Ork Horde box - very minimalist :)


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 Post subject: Re: Accessible Epic
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:47 pm 
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SM1 brings a tear to my eye. Beatlebacks and hoardes of monochromatic beakies

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 Post subject: Re: Accessible Epic
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:14 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
SM1 brings a tear to my eye. Beatlebacks and hoardes of monochromatic beakies


Hi!

Right there with you!

I still look at my copies for great inspiration!

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 Post subject: Re: Accessible Epic
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:41 pm 
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Monkeyboy wrote:
Marine Land Raiders? Average, at best
Tactical Marines? Take one unit as BTS, I suppose - but need a Hunter

Yeah it's dissapointing how poor Tactical are in Epic-UK. In the background Space Marine's are organised ino battle companies each consisting of 2 epic tacical formations, 1 devestator and 1 assault. but hardly anyone takes more than one Tacitcal formation.

They are adjusted to be better in the Net-EA version of the Space Marine list but sadly the Epic-UK list hasn't followed suit. Specifically Land Raider and Tactical formations are 25 points cheaper and Tacticals can take the Land Raider upgrade (I normally like to add a single one up front to take hits without the formation getting too expensive). Thunderbolts are 175 in Net-EA though, which balances things out.

Changes to the Orks would be good too and such have been discussed but not yet acted on.


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 Post subject: Re: Accessible Epic
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:47 pm 
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Wouldn't a better solution to this theoretical problem be for experienced players to moderate their behaviour. I mean if a noob with 2nd edition plastic in sub-optimal fully upgraded per the fluff formations wants to play you choose something similarly woeful, rather than tabling them 5-0 with your tournament honed bag of spam?


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