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Dragon Slayers EPIC GT 2007 Results!

 Post subject: Dragon Slayers EPIC GT 2007 Results!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:48 pm 
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Mine was

Retinue + Warlord + 2 Obliterators
Retinue + Sourcerer + Obliterator + Pact
4 Chosen + Lord +  Obliterator
Bike Cult + Lord + Pact
6 Raptors + Lord + Pact
Forlorn Hope + Rhinos
Forlorn Hope + Rhinos
Feral
Feral
Decimator
9 Lesser Daemons

And for the record I finished 14th.


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 Post subject: Dragon Slayers EPIC GT 2007 Results!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:49 pm 
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That's 'cos you didn't take enough Ferals. :D

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 Post subject: Dragon Slayers EPIC GT 2007 Results!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:00 am 
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My list -

Retinue +2 Obliterators +Pact +Icon
Retinue +Obliterator +Pact
4 Chosen +Obliterator +Pact
Feral
Feral
Feral
Forlorn Hope +Rhinos +Pact
Forlorn Hope +Rhinos +Pact
8 Raptors +Pact
11 Daemons

I think the results from this tournament mean that in the 7 Epic tournaments in the UK this year we have had 6 different winners and 2 Eldar, 2 Ork, 2 Guard and 1 Chaos lists winning.
Another example of why huge changes to each list aren't necessary.

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 Post subject: Dragon Slayers EPIC GT 2007 Results!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:08 am 
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The fact that the lists are relatively balanced does not mean that some units within the list are not underpowered rubbish, or that other units are not overpowered monsters.

It means that the lists as a whole are balanced.

That's the big fallacy of relying only on win figures to tell if the army lists are balanced or not; Looking at win figures tells you if (For example) the Chaos list is relatively balanced, but it doesn't answer the question as to why everyone feels the need to take 2/3 Feral Titans to make their lists compete, or why nobody takes Greater Daemons...


Lists can be balanced, even with a multitude of units contained within them that are totally broken (In both directions).

Cheers.





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 Post subject: Dragon Slayers EPIC GT 2007 Results!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:35 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 30 2007,09:08)
QUOTE
The fact that the lists are relatively balanced does not mean that some units within the list are not underpowered rubbish, or that other units are not overpowered monsters.

It means that the lists as a whole are balanced.

That's the big fallacy of relying only on win figures to tell if the army lists are balanced or not; Looking at win figures tells you if (For example) the Chaos list is relatively balanced, but it doesn't answer the question as to why everyone feels the need to take 2/3 Feral Titans to make their lists compete, or why nobody takes Greater Daemons...


Lists can be balanced, even with a multitude of units contained within them that are totally broken (In both directions).

Cheers.

Cant say I agree with this - Epic armies are pretty open in structure so if lists have seriously overpowered formations or units, tournament players will tend to find them and exploit them to the limit.

A list would easily show up as overpowered. Probable reasons this hasnt happened are manyfold.

First most things that people think are seriously overpowered arn't - they are just a little bit overpowered.

The objective nature of the game has a calming effect on possible overpowering, doesnt matter how deadly a war engine of doom is if my lone remaining bike has the last activation and grabs or disputes an objective.

Their tend to be slightly overpowered or efficient combinations in all the lists so these balance out.

More specifically with regards ferals and warhounds

Ferals are used in chaos lists and warhounds in marines etc because they are efficient for their points warhounds more so at 250pts with ferals being about right at 300pts (admitedly that changes under the new MW barrage rules), but they are obvious inclusions more for the fact they are cheap fairly tough formations that can keep your activation count relatively high late into a game - they also provide both lists with a good shooting MW attack something the lists generally are weak at.

In my opinion balancing army lists is always more important than balancing every little unit or formation at the very least because such a thing is almost certainly impossible and will probably lead unintentionally to less balanced lists (mostly because as people try to micro focus and balance everything more and more oportunities for human error creeps in).

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 Post subject: Dragon Slayers EPIC GT 2007 Results!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:42 am 
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yme-loc: It's that ethos which lead to half of the Marine army list being underpowered for competative play; The list as a whole can hold its own, so there's no need to do anything about all those overpriced tanks, right? :)

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 Post subject: Dragon Slayers EPIC GT 2007 Results!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:45 am 
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White Scars for me

White Scar Bikes + Supreme Commander
White Scar Bikes + Chaplain
Tacticals
Scouts + Razorback
Scouts + Razorback
Land Speeders
Thunderhawk
Thunderhawk
Warhound
Warhound
Thunderbolts
Thunderbolts

Cheers to Matt for another great tournament.

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 Post subject: Dragon Slayers EPIC GT 2007 Results!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:52 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 30 2007,09:42)
QUOTE
yme-loc: It's that ethos which lead to half of the Marine army list being underpowered for competative play; The list as a whole can hold its own, so there's no need to do anything about all those overpriced tanks, right? :)

I was probably expressing the extreme of my personal ethos - its always the problem with the internet as a communications tool that you have to give a more extreme viewpoint to make a point than you might feel if given the time of an ebb and flow conversation - its also the case that people replying then have to find some flaw and pounce on that while ignoring the general point.

There are currently far too many changes proposed to all the epic lists.

The fact that a few of them may be necessary unfortunately doesnt change that fact or the problem that too many individual apparently reasonable changes quite often lead to unforseen and often problematic consequences.





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 Post subject: Dragon Slayers EPIC GT 2007 Results!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:02 pm 
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Mine was:

Terminators
Land Speeders
Assault
Devastator (Drop pods)
Tactical (Drop Pods)
Tactical (Rhinos) + Sup Com.
Thunderhawk
Warhound
Warhound
Thunderbolts
Thunderbolts
Thunderbolts


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 Post subject: Dragon Slayers EPIC GT 2007 Results!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:24 pm 
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Yme-Loc,

Totally agree. That is why unoffical changes are NOT put into UK EPIC tournaments.





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 Post subject: Dragon Slayers EPIC GT 2007 Results!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:51 am 
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Mine was Marines

Strike Cruiser
Landing Craft
Terminators (+chaplain)
Devastators (+captain & Razorback)
Scouts (pods)
Scouts (pods)
Tacticals (+Razorback & Hunter)
Devastators (+Razorback & Hunter)
Landspeeders
Warhound
Warhound

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