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ERC Representation

 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:37 pm 
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Maybe true but this thread is sparkled with an attitude of nihilism and defeatism (what's that? ;) ).

Great to see though that people care so much about the hobby. That's good.

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 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 3:24 pm 
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Blarg, your post disturbs me.  Not what you are saying per se but the air of defeat that hangs over your post.  I think you are taking the Demolisher cannon thing waaaaay to personal.  I didn't like the results either but I really couldn't come up with a better solution and ultimately the popular vote won out.


I'm not taking the Demolisher Cannon discussion personally, I still maintain my opinion and will continue to do so until someone convinces me otherwise.  While you may not have come up with a better solution I feel I was able to, wrote it out in a post that I fealt addressed all of the pertinent issues, and watched as it was ignored and trampled on.

The real problem is that this isn't the first time I have seen this done in the years I have been posting about Epic: Armageddon.  I participated in the AMTL list development very heavily, and watched a majority of my suggestions get ignored, twisted, or changed.  And look what happened to that list: it has gone nowhere.  The AMTL, home of the Imperial titans, the basis of the very beginning of this game 20+ years ago, is a disgusting mess!

My problem is that the Demolisher Cannon Discussion showed to me who is involved and how they are going to operate, and I don't like the situation.  I can almost hear Patrick Stewart's voice saying: "We are NetE:A, resistance is futile, prepare to be ignored."

I've been involved with Epic for about 20 years.  I've been involved in game development with other game systems.  I have a masters of science degree in operations management.  I have done exhaustive reading on national strategy, army strategy, tactics, and command.  While I may not be top of form in regards to the fine details about Epic: Armageddon or the latest word in the ever-changing background of the 40K universe, I can see everything that is going on and realize that this NetE:A development is going to result in an ugly mess.

I understand that statement may offend some out there, but it is not intended to offend the people involved but the process.  Yes, Net 2.0 and collaborative development are supposed to be the next greatest thing in Western society, but for any endeavor to succeed it must have good leadership.  I have not seen good leadership regarding Epic:A development since I started posting to the old SG forums, and for that I blame SG/GW.  Jervis has been an absent parent and Andy has not been up to the task, through no fault of his own.  To complicate matters, effective leadership cannot develop to fill the vacuum because anything coming from some place other than SG/GW will lack the veneer of officialness that the gamers feel that they need.

It's only going to get worse.  Epic: Armageddon is effectively dead for GW.  Dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead.  They have cut off new product support for the forseeable future and have put forward a replacement: WH40K Apocalypse - Epic in 28mm scale.  SG/GW will not do anything that will aid development of NetE:A because anything Epic will draw customer support and money from WH40K Apocalypse or conflict with GW's intellectual property strategy.  If someone out there is holding out hope that anyone from GW is going to do anything that will help NetE:A in any manner I have a suggestion: put down the Kool Aid, back away from the table, and ask a friend to beat you until the pain makes you realize that official support from GW is gone and won't be back.

You want to save Epic: Armageddon?  Cut GW out of the picture completely.  Take the rules, fix them, strip out & replace any GW-like verbage with some other terms, and make the rules generic for 6mm sci-fi games.  Conjure up "fan lists" for the miniatures from DRM, Baccus, GW, and any of the other producers out there.  Call the whole thing 6mm Armageddon.

But since none of what I say is going to make an impact, I'll just go back to what I said earlier.  I got what I needed for now regarding Epic: Armageddon, so I'm going to go off, put together my own set of corrected rules, put together my own army lists, and try to make it all so that my gaming group likes it.  I'll lurk, look for any ideas that are good, post occassionally, and try to stay out of anything you guys do.

You guys have fun.

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 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 3:58 pm 
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I sent a PM, Blarg. ?Please consider it.

Personally I think anyone 'jumping ship' right now is making a tremendous mistake for themselves and doing the community a disservice as well. ?Dissenting voices are good. ?The next couple months are going to be rough but I anticipate something happening very soon (November at the latest) that will normalize things for the community. ?No, I don't know anything secret. ?I am just anticipating the direction everything is moving in and I see it as a positive on (albeit chaotic).





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 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 4:30 pm 
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The level of catastrophising recently observable in this thread is getting a bit ridiculous.

What - do I have to just do everything myself now?  

Nothing is that bad guys...

Everyone cheer the hell up. (Edit - especially Blarg!)  :alien:

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 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 5:23 pm 
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(Markconz @ Sep. 07 2007,11:30)
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Everyone cheer the hell up. (Edit - especially Blarg!) ?:alien:

Thanks, but I don't need cheering up. I'm very much in support of all the efforts from you, Moscovian, et. al. to get the ball rolling. Even if SG's response is deafening silence or total rejection, I don't think it's wasted effort.

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 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 5:37 pm 
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(Dwarf Supreme @ Sep. 07 2007,09:23)
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Even if SG's response is deafening silence or total rejection, I don't think it's wasted effort.

Its the inherent contradiction that I don't understand

In order to justify doing something ourselves we need to validate that decision by asking SG to do it and then proving we don't need their validation to do the job.

Why not simplify the process and just do the work?

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 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 5:44 pm 
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Right. I think that we right now need a clear plan, and some organisation. While I think that Neal is the best person for the job, and I am not alone in this, I can understand that this puts him between a rock and a hard place.

We, the community, must get organised, and fast.

While I agree that getting SG and/or Andy on our side is pretty much futile, if it happened then the whole thing would be a hell of a lot easier. Therefore, I think that we should make at least a token effort. It would be a shame to miss the opportunity to make life easier through a lack of a single email, even it this is number 135 out of a series of 135! ?:p

However, we also need a contingency. I think that it is pretty much agreed that the game is in our hands.

Therefore, I suggest that the email is sent and goes ahead as planned, but that we also continue under the assumption that there will be no response or no favourable response.

I would also suggest that Marks excellent volume forms a focal point, since the work has gone into it already. However, I would also like to see a 'change document'. Essentially, a list of things that have been changed from the 'official and established rules' - even if this materialises as a list of the various status of the rules. I think that it would be a good idea to list each section/rule with a status such as 'official core', 'official update', 'popular update' and 'untested update'. At least with this it would be possible for people to know exactly what kind of rules they are playing with, and make their decisions at home accordingly. Is this possible? If/When this is done, we should compile a list of 'next round' changes, so that everyone is clear on what the next set of discussions will deal with, and this will also provide us with an end point, ready for the 'rinse and repeat' cycle.

In addition, it would be great if we could get as many representatives here. There are numerous groups online, and more without a web presence, and a wealth of experience and ideas. It would be crazy for all groups to try to develop in parallel. Is it possible for people to contact the various groups, such as the 'French group', and assure them that their ideas and comments will be listened to?

Comments?

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 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 5:55 pm 
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I agree with your plan, CS.

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 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 7:05 pm 
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CS, I think it is a good plan.  FYI Morg is a good point of contact for the German players.

Why not simplify the process and just do the work?

PG, we should be a good portion of the community wishes it and it costs us nothing but a little time.  If you disagree just ignore the email, although it would be nice if we had your name on it as well.

Blarg, see?  Things are happening? :)

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 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 7:09 pm 
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If emails are again ignored I'm willing to give any letter/proposal/petition etc to Andy in person at Games Day on Sept23

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 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:51 pm 
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Heh I could do that too.

Epicmeet @ Gamesday? :D

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 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:11 am 
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(CyberShadow @ Sep. 07 2007,16:44)
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1. I would also suggest that Marks excellent volume forms a focal point, since the work has gone into it already. However, I would also like to see a 'change document'. Essentially, a list of things that have been changed from the 'official and established rules' - even if this materialises as a list of the various status of the rules. I think that it would be a good idea to list each section/rule with a status such as 'official core', 'official update', 'popular update' and 'untested update'. At least with this it would be possible for people to know exactly what kind of rules they are playing with, and make their decisions at home accordingly. Is this possible? If/When this is done, we should compile a list of 'next round' changes, so that everyone is clear on what the next set of discussions will deal with, and this will also provide us with an end point, ready for the 'rinse and repeat' cycle.

2. In addition, it would be great if we could get as many representatives here. There are numerous groups online, and more without a web presence, and a wealth of experience and ideas. It would be crazy for all groups to try to develop in parallel. Is it possible for people to contact the various groups, such as the 'French group', and assure them that their ideas and comments will be listened to?

Comments?

1. Neal's documents will effectively be the change documents. Until then everyone will have to live just with highlights in blue as my time is not unlimited sadly.

2. A while ago I was wondering about posting on the German and French epic forums.  I think many Germans and a few French are here already anyway, and I note the handbook is already mentioned on the German board. Would be good to have more involved though.


Also yes to Steve and E&C, please talk to Andy in person if you can. It's not quite as good as my plan of replacing him with a obedient epic driven clone but it's the next best option.

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 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 5:59 am 
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I would also suggest that Marks excellent volume forms a focal point,since the work has gone into it already. However, I would also like to see a 'change document'. Essentially, a list of things that have been changed from the 'official and established rules' - even if this materialises as a list of the various status of the rules. I think that it would be a good idea to list each section/rule with a status such as 'official core', 'official update', 'popular update' and 'untested update'. At least with this it would be possible for people to know exactly what kind of rules they are playing with, and make their decisions at home accordingly. Is this possible? If/When this is done, we should compile a list of 'next round' changes, so that everyone is clear on what the next set of discussions will deal with, and this will also provide us with an end point, ready for the 'rinse and repeat' cycle.



I like this; what has held me back from particpating more in this is simply that I find it difficult to know what are the latest updates, how near they are to being official, what I need to use from the core rules and what has changed. ?So I support C/S's suggestion! :)


In addition, it would be great if we could get as many representatives here. There are numerous groups online, and more without a web presence, and a wealth of experience and ideas. It would be crazy for all groups to try to develop in parallel. Is it possible for people to contact the various groups, such as the 'French group', and assure them that their ideas and comments will be listened to?

Someone has already asked me to liaise with the French Epic community, but sadly I've had to decline due to time constraints. ?But I have recommended that someone does invite the participation of the French Epic gaming community, and I've suggested using FBruntz as the first port of call (so to speak); even if he doesn't have time to participate fully, I believe (at the very least) he would like to know the French community's work, views and inputs are welcome; he may also recommend someone who could be the representative.






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 Post subject: ERC Representation
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:17 pm 
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(Markconz @ Sep. 08 2007,02:11)
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2. A while ago I was wondering about posting on the German and French epic forums.  I think many Germans and a few French are here already anyway, and I note the handbook is already mentioned on the German board. Would be good to have more involved though.

Rest assured, the German community is always lurking on these boards ;)

We are not quite as big as the English community though, so the number of active participants is way smaller anyway.

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