I agree with Rug on Reavers. Warriors in raiders is way better for the points.

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you are all partly correct,
units with Jump Packs will only take a DTT if they land in dangerous terrain for that unit type.
Scourges are INF so will only take a DTT if they land in terrain that is dangerous for INF (marshes/rivers) not for landing in terrain that is dangerous to AVs or WEs (ruins/woods and so on).

A Scourge unit moving into a wood is not moving into DT so does not take a terrain test but a Revenant Titan doing the same would need to take a test as it is DT to a WE.

My mate's crisis suits will be happy. Thanks for the clarification

Thank also for the clarification! Great relief I've not been cheating/ being cheated!

I have had some luck with wracks (grotesques in the current NetEA list, but they were part of a formation that had Talos and Perditors., and the entire formation was in cover supporting the perditors who were being used as my artillery sitting mid table. I have also had them wiped out by a AMTL in a tournament, but they were one of the last formations to be lost. Fearless really helped out there.

As to reavers, their move of 40cm means they can rush from one table side to the other, the 4+ save is better than the warriors "-" save, and sitting warriors in cover means they get sniped at by enemy sitting farther out with better ranged weapons. The reavers have a very good FF value, and can force the enemy to use their FF rather than their CC. In the current list NetEA, list not the test list, you can get 8 reavers. While infantry are capped at max 8 per formation. So Reavers can equal the numbers of warriors for the same price. Since warriors are limited to range 15cm, they are not any better than the reavers.

I find the 4+ save, ability to move 120cm and lend support in a FF, better than what foot infantry can do. Especially now that the test list stops them from firing or using their FF from the raider. I tend not to spam them, as you need other elements to handle the big guys. 2 formations of reavers with succubi will not kill off a pair of warhounds without losing a lot of their units. They might even lose the engage action.

I would like to see the Wyches moved to the Kalabite section, as they are troops in the 40K codex. That would have to be play tested to make sure people do not Spam them as part of an assault army, making it a little OP. Something like taking berserkers in a Squat army rather than the warriors.

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6mm wargaming is just like 25mm wargaming with more units fitting on the same size table. Thus bigger games to get lost in and avoid the hassles of everyday living, and offerings for the dice gods.

I've been reading through the list tonight. I have the army and have played them in one tournament last year.
I like what you done with the tormentor and the changes to infantry upgrade prices. Those were needed. The AA is a boost to the titan that gives another reason to bring it, which it kind of needed for the points price is IMO high for what it brings (actually still is would like to see a drop by 50ish points).
I guess removing regen on the shields is ok, when more are given in compensation. Would like to se the VoP gain one more shield like the Barge to compensate.
The void ravens and venoms are a nice addition for variety.
Removing the Krashnarak is a good thing, I find it a bit silly.
The portable gate is worth playtesting.

There are however a few thing I think your moving in the wrong direction with.
Having the Barge loose the desolator is a big blow to it. A favorite tactic of mine has been to add two barges to a warrior kabal. This formation is awesome for fighting infantry. I've based my list builds around one or two of these formations. I usually advance to were I can shoot an infantry garrison for instance and try to position my self so that I can support a follow up assault on it and preferably one more formation. Two barges also makes for a (kind of) strong (in the DE list at least) BTS formation. I just can't see the barge as a good option without the desolators and that's a shame.

I know the desolators are still around on the VoP, but those are not used for hunting infantry as that would be a waste of TK-shots and you only get 2BP (I've never seen a list with a 2x VoP formation). They're only a gimmick. Please bring the desolator back to the barge.

I see you said about this (the barges) and other stuff, a few times in this thread, that you want certain changes to bring the units in line with the epicUK list. I don't see why you'd want to strive for that. it's unnecessary. There is no need for the list or units to be equal to the UK stuff.

The 5+ save in assaults was a nice fluff addition on the whyches. a 5+ saves makes a big difference in an assault setting compared to 6+. Sorry to see it go, but I see how it can be considered an unnecessary special rule.

Why's that? I find them a really good 200 point unit. They're fast, have good firefight, decent shooting, activate on a 1 plus, and in assaults can bring the raiders to the front for a solid armour save plus they have upgrades that are actually worth taking in the Dracon and webway gate. They're one of the best prep and support units in the game. They're easily competitive with say squat bezerker in the 200 point unit bracket!

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@ Borka, I agree most highly with your comments (Thumbs up).



Why? Because their transport, although it has a 4+ save and moves 35cm, can be shot at, and usually is shot at by every weapon the enemy has in range. Since the Raider has a dedicated AT weapon at range 30cm, the enemy can generally pick on a formation that has moved, sit outside its weapons range, and kill it off with both AP and AT weapons. The infantry die unless they pass their 6+ cover save, but that was better than no save at all if sitting in the open.

The infantry used to be able to use the raider as a mobile weapons platform, Kinda like Gansta drive-by shooting, but with only a poor 15cm range. They did however get the raiders armour save to protect them, and it meant they could use their FF value along with the raider in engagements. A good enemy can always position a pair of formations to envelop the Dark Eldar, unless you get a lot of formations in there for the engagement. If you deploy the infantry, they are forced to use their lower CC value then without an armour save.

A good Dark Eldar commander using the Raiders as a weapons platform, can keep her/his raiders/warriors constantly moving from behind one cover to another, limiting how many enemy can see them, ganging up on the enemy who I find sually have far longer weapon ranges, and larger formation sizes, and then forcing the enemy to fight on your terms.

Now they have to get off the bus to shoot, it makes them a lot less useful. Also I always found that if they were forced off their transports, then they may as well make engage actions rather than shoot. They have better or same stats at the same range, and can affect vehicles and infantry in CC/FF instead of only infantry when they shoot.

That is how I see it. I never used the UK list. Only the NetEA list, which was designed to work like the current 40K Dark Eldar do (except they had forgotten the venoms).

I can still get better use out of Ravagers at 225 points for 4, than the Syndicates (especially since the Barges lost the Desolator), and use Reavers, Wyches, Haemonculi, and Mandrakes for the roles I want my infantry to carry out.

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6mm wargaming is just like 25mm wargaming with more units fitting on the same size table. Thus bigger games to get lost in and avoid the hassles of everyday living, and offerings for the dice gods.

DE are an assault army though dude. When my usual opponent uses them the shooting is simply to place BMs before supported assaults. Its when he hits me with the assaults is when I lose shedloads of troops. Warriors have ff 4+ and can get the 4+ save in assault by putting transports forward and jumping out the back of them with the troops. DE are not a strong shooting force in my experience. But they eat you alive in assaults

Flyingthruwater and SteveCole is correct. For 200p the warriors is very, very good.

What counts as shooting in 40K is what FF assaults are in Epic. The DE is a super strong assault army. Just like in 40K.

Shooting in epic is for heavy weapons, not for bolters/shuriken catapults/splinter rifles/shootas etc.

This is very obvious.

It's almost like we play a different game.

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"You have a right to be offended" - Steve Hughes
"Your feelings are hurting my thoughts" - Aron Flam

Dude, Dark Eldar are a combined Shooting and assault force, just like in 40K. Warriors using transport to get closer laying down withering poisoned weapons fire and Ravagers for shooting both troops and tanks. For assaults you use the Reavers, Wyches, Talos, and Haemonculi and add in the vehicle mounted troops and the ravagers to lend their FF shooting.

Infantry assaulting into CC/FF who do not have a save value even if they move into area terrain can not get a cover save (except for overwatch fire). The rules specifically state this. The attacker can never take a cover save in an assault, only the defender. (1.12.5).

Your mate might massacre your army through his engage actions, but he has to shoot you up a bit, remove a few units and add blast markers to you in order to make this work. Dark Eldar can not be just an assault army. You need the speed of Reavers and other fast units to grab objectives, the fire power of Tormentors, VOP, and ravagers to take out enemy super heavies and titans/gargants. your air cover to keep a CAP and perform strafing runs to finish off broken enemy formations.

I find it hard think of Dark Eldar as just an assault army. Their formations often have size limits - a specific design flaw to limit their ability to stand upto a lot of other armies. Most other armies can easily out number them. So many DE units are designed for support fire, and manoeuvring around the enemy probing for gaps in their defences. Stealing objectives, providing crossfire, breaking formations with disrupt weaponry, and yes also there are those designed just for assaulting, but I find it is better to assault only when I have used my shooting units to soften them the enemy first, or get an enemy formation alone and gang up on them.

I think we do play a different style of game. I play Dark Eldar in Epic as a combined arms army using all the elements at hand to best take out the enemy. Where this means keeping away from them, I do this. I avoid the nasty Wraithguard who have shortish ranged MW and can use MW in both FF and CC. I sit back and shoot them from range. I close in and assault/FF enemy who are better at range like tanks that generally get multiple ranged weapons, but normally only a single attack in CC or FF.

I use the same tactics in all my armies. Dark Eldar, and my other 2 fast armies Sian-Hann and White Scars both have fast forces to manoeuvre around the enemy and kill off isolated formations, use tactics like flank denial, and other tactics designed for fast attack, hit and run (strike and fade away), sniping at enemy from cover, then run off while they try to reinforce an area, you hit another.

What seem to be a deliberate attempt to force Dark Eldar into being an assault army is the reduction of their Splinter cannon range down to 15cm instead of 30cm like other armies equivalent - the Eldars Shuriken Cannon, or the Imperial Heavy Bolter. Imagine the complaining and whinging everyone would do if they reduced the Eldars Shuriken Cannon and the Imperials (guard, Marines, Sisters, etc) heavy bolter down to 15cm. Personally I think the UK list was designed by someone who had a set idea about DE and wanted to force them to be played with that tactical mindset. If the range had been 30cm from the start, then people might be playing DE just as they play them in 40K, and use them for both shooting and assault.

I design my lists to use both shooting and assault tactics, and the changes to the Warriors and the raiders force me to not include some formations like those as they, can only work in a purely assault army.

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6mm wargaming is just like 25mm wargaming with more units fitting on the same size table. Thus bigger games to get lost in and avoid the hassles of everyday living, and offerings for the dice gods.

The only shooting his DE do is making sure that any potential Overwatch is fairly well suppressed and to make sure I have more blast markers than his troops. Admittedly he usually doesn't take the big points sink units like Executioner or such so his army is like a shoal of piranha with loads of activations and Warrior formations. With all of his force being skimmers I usually struggle to get shots on them before they jump over the cover and assault me. My artillery can't be everywhere unfortunately....

They're shooting can be relatively effective but with it's short range means that you need to do a lot of damage quickly to reduce the return fire. Or do everything at the Double which hamstrings your shooting. You could blast isolated units with concentrated force, but then you might as well prep them and assault really.

DE can't get stuck in a back and forth shooting match but they can batter you nonetheless.

Deep breath everyone.


& you would be correct with the list then going through the archaic rituals of discussion and testing by the shadowy cult of EUK playtesters. The EUK DE list is not designed to go toe to toe with armies, but more to spread out and then with sharp cutting attacks group up and take the opponent apart.

However, this thread is about 2017 NetEA DE proposed changes and I do think that the Barge change is good (& the aligning elements to the UK list).

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Sorry, went to the theatre las night didnt log on and then...

Its great to see some passionate discussion about the DE!

Borka and Deb have raised my pertinent points with regards to possible changes and playstyles.

I would like this thread to concentrate on the list itself and we can talk DE tactica in another thread.

Has anyone managed to have a game with the new list yet?

Cheers
Jim

No, my usual Epic gaming is the end of the month Last Sunday, and usually with a mate from Richmond NSW (far north of Sydney) about 1.5 to 2 hours drive away from Campbelltown NSW (South Sydney). However the 3 or 4 other gamers I know locally tend to prefer playing other gaming systems most of the time, so I can not get them to organise a game at any other time.

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6mm wargaming is just like 25mm wargaming with more units fitting on the same size table. Thus bigger games to get lost in and avoid the hassles of everyday living, and offerings for the dice gods.