Even better reason not to add it to the Squat/Demiurg profile; thanks for the correction!

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Squat/Demiurg Army Co-Champion (in cahoots with Jaldon)

Was the airship ever capable of carrying troops?

Curious that it wouldn't have this function in a limited capacity.(or did i simply miss it?)

Hena is correct.

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"I don't believe in destiny or the guiding hand of fate." N. Peart

Has there been any revision not recorded in the initial post?

Based on the list I have, which appears to be the same as the initial post, there are a few points that could use clarification/revision.

First, Particle Shielding. Get rid of it, replace it with Void Sheilds like an STC based culture should have.

The tunneler entry in the army list is unclear as to how many formations of tunnelers can be taken, and who can do so.

The Tunnelers special rule is in need of clarification: How do you deal with the transit time (ie when do you start)? What happens if you fail the Init roll? What if you do not want to tunnel (ie destroyed rigs breaking up a formation)? Why do they get CC and FF stats and how do they move after surfacing? There would be a great deal of simplification if they had no FF or CC except on the Rigs, and the transported formation was simply allowed to Engage out of them, as if teleporting.

Overlord Airship. A DC3 WE Skimmer with 2 battlecannon shots and 2 autocannon shots with AA for 200pts? And it drops bombs? With bomb bays it should count as always popped up; yes it's a game, but you wouldn't want to drop bombs from under the treetops, and couldn't get 15cm range if you did. Price @300 min. Compare to Eldar Scorpion SHGT. +20% save chance (75% vs ~55%), Fearless, Immune to Crossfire, drops a template if you do kill it.

Goliath macrocannon has a range not divisable by 15cm. not a huge thing, but against convention.

Land Trains
If land trains lose the engine, they still get 2/3 the speed? If you aren't gonna stop em dead, make it a 5cm move. Not clear how they are treated: Each car is a WE that must remain in base contact with the leading and following cars? Clarification needed.

Why do all land train cars have 4+ FF and 4+ CC? A single autocannon on a 2DC WE does not justify 4+ FF, and 4 Sandhogs do not justify 4+ CC - they also get their attacks. Most of these cars justify 6+ FF 6+ CC, The Engineer should have 5+ FF with the Autocannon equivalent, the Dragon 4+ FF. I understand that this is the Titan Equivalent in the army, but that does not justify the FF/CC stats. It’s a tank. No feet to stomp, no arms to crush, most weapons are conveniently pointed at the car in front instead of the enemy beside you.

These following suggestions are based on keeping the current CC/FF stats (see above).

Dragon Car. Let's min-max. For 650pt I get 12 demolisher shots on 11DC of 4+ RA, Thick Rear Armor, Fearless doom? Worth 150-175 a car.

Roadmaker. Full train 750points, 15 BP. Almost comparable to IG arty until you realize (again) 4+RA, TRA, Fearless, 11x 4+FF, 11x 4+CC. vs 5+ Armor, 9x 5+FF, 9x 6+CC. Its an Arty. Company that you can't roll over in Engage. Worth 150-175 a car.

Pilum. Full train 750. Leave it @ 125, though if you shoot your 15BP Macro Barrage at 300cm (or 12 BP TK(1) @ unlimited), you still have an engage monster left over.

Engineer. Probably an OK price, maybe a bit much for the firepower it adds. Call it 175-200. But really, what this train needs is more (as many as 32x more) 4+ CC attacks? Again, fix the base stats and the cost goes down and this car is a more needed option. Right now it’s really expensive gravy.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

I can tell you the particle shielding won't go away.  There is a whole fluff reason for it that relates back to the storyline and how the shielding is more like the Tau deflector shield than Void Shields.  I'll let ePilgrim handle the remainder of the questions in detail, but having fought against and with the list numerous times I can say it plays pretty evenly.  You might have some valid points, however, so I'll reserve judgment till the discussion gets moving.  

My personal apologies, however, for the delay in getting the pdf completed.  I've been tied up with other obligations (Raiders 2.0 and all the lists therein) but I promise I will work on this come Spring (less than 4 weeks away if you listen to the groundhog).

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Don't have access to the fluff, but that would make some more sense... Will wait on the rest.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

No worries.  I think it is good to have people poking at the list and questioning the stats, so please continue.  The fluff is in the process of being written but what you've touched on is actually one of the pivotal pieces of the story we came up with.  It becomes one of several things that drives a wedge between the Squats/Demiurg and the Imperium.  

If you like the list enough (or at least the potential of the list) then let me know and perhaps we can enlist you for some contributions (playtests, pictures, ideas, etc.).  Of course whatever GW does with the Demiurg in the future might ultimately screw it all up, but its worth the adventure anyway.  

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

We will definitely help out with the playlist testing.  You can see a basic outline of the 5k game I played with them yesterday in the battle reports section.

One thing we're going to try the next time I play the list is a change to the Lineholder Grand Battery cost for the mole mortar upgrade.  When I asked about it about 6 months ago,  I was told that the +25 point was to upgrade the whole formation to mole mortars as a single flat cost so 6 mole mortars was 225 and 9 mole mortars were 350 points.  As was shown in this and the last game I played with them (1 formation against IG in 3k and 2 formations at 5k vs orks)  350 points for 90 cm 9BP disrupt that fires every turn seems a little light.  What I'm going to do is try pointing the 6 unit formation at 350 points for mole mortars and 500 points for the full 9 unit formation and see how that balances out.

We will also be converting the Gorgons to Walker status since that seems to make more sense than a blanket immunity to terrain.

Very cool.  This project is near and dear to ePiglrim's heart and I want to make sure we put out a good supplement, but first and foremost the lists need to be well balanced.  So your help on this is most appreciated.  I think trying small modifications like you detailed above are fine just as long as we can go back and see what you did and how it worked.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Ok.  Here's how I came up with the 350 and 500 point costs for the mole mortar formations.

Lineholder formation is base 200 for 6 models.  that puts them at 33.33 points per stand for non Mole Mortars.  There is the +25 point upgrade to make them Mole Mortars which would under the current rules be 225 points for 6 making them 37.5 points per stand.  The 9 stand non mole mortar formation is 300 points for 9 models,  making it 33.33 points per stand.  no change there.  The 9 Mole Mortars is 38.88 points per mole mortar stand making for 38.88 points per barrage point of disrupt for that big formation.  Lets compare that to a couple other formations.  

Formation A:  Space Marine Whirlwinds.  300 points for 4 BP at the same range as the mole mortars so it's 75 points per barrage point for somewhat more durable formation (AV vs infantry and ATSKNF)

Formation B:  IG Manticores.  Battery is 200 points,  Company is 650 points.  So we're looking at 66.66 per unit for the battery and 72.22 points per unit for the company making it 33.33 ppBP and 36.11ppBP respecitvely BUT they are slow firing.  

Now the Mole Mortars may have durability issues and range issues compared to the Manticores but they have 2 major advantages.

1:  They can Garrison.  That potentially makes the range issue moot depending on how the objectives are placed.  

2:  They can fire every turn.  This is a HUGE advantage for a disrupt weapon with that much barrage potential.

I don't have the swordwind PDFs handy so I can't compare to what the Eldar have as IIRC they have some disrupt artillery as well.

So we get back to the point costing I was talking about.

First off.  For the base formation, we make it so that you pay +25 points per mole mortar stand to update them which would make the base 6 stand formation 350 points so we're looking about 68 ppBP disrupt.  Then for the Local upgrade we would have it at 150 points to make the rounding of points a little easier.  If that seems too powerful then we could extend the +25 points per stand to the local as well making the 9 stand formation 525 points.

58.33 per stand, actually. High, but under the Basilisk. Worth a shot. Probably needs lowering. Also keep in mind that if you put these gut in ruins/woods, you regain alot of lost ground in terms of survivability. Buying Spartans (or Gorgons) and keeping in BtB helps as well.

A couple other questions:
1) Do Sandhogs get EA+1 on CC and FF? If this is the case, why do they cost the same (or less) than Ironbreakers? They are 37.5/stand in brotherhoods, same as Ironbreakers. They are 31.25/stand in affiliates, vs. 33.33/stand for Ironbreakers.
Ironbreakers have a 1/3 Save, 1/3 CC hit, 1/3 FF Hit, and 1 45cm AP5/AT6 shot.
Sandhogs have 1/3 save, 1 CC Hit, 1/3 FF hit (2x6+), and Infiltrate. With Armsmen as an option, I'd take Sandhogs as my assault with Armsmen to prep for assault over the Ironbreakers at the same cost. I'd probably do so with just the CC EA+1.

2) Are the restrictions on the Action types (Thunderfire, Goliath, etc.) neccessary? Classing them as immobile will take the chance to move away, and anyone who undertakes an engage is insane with the stats they have. Is the sacrificial engage with supporting fire a problem?

3) Are the action restrictions on the Land train (RE:Critical) permanent? A specialized Roadmaker or Pilum train would be virtually useless.

4) Would it make sense to classify Kthons as Characters for their TBMs? You could then remove the character after TBM launch, and clean up the rules.

I don't mean to come across as tearing down the work you've done; I want this list to be successful, and not have these questions asked later.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

[quote="Spectrar Ghost,Feb. 19 2010, 20:33 "][/quote]


No, the list is current.



Regardless of my responses, thanks for giving it a read.



I understand that is how you feel, however without coming up with a critical analysis or several game play examples, I don't think you are giving the concept of something different from Void shields consideration. This has been played a lot and discussed a lot, and while you may not like it personally, it works on the table.



from pg 1 of this thread:

DEMIURG A.S.G. TUNNELLER RIGS
(TBM are a special Transport unit made up of a TBM and a Khthon. Termite/Mole formations can only transport a single formation. A Hellbore may carry more than a single formation, but it may not be mixed with Termites or Moles.)
TERMITE TBM & KHTHON CRADLE (0-9, enough to transport one entire formation, but no more) 10 points each
MOLE TBM & HEAVY KHTHON (replace 2 termite & khthon units for 1 mole & heavy khthon unit) free
HELLBORE TBM & KHTHON HOG (1 hellbore & khthon hog unit) 125 points

please describe in detail how this could be made plainer; I am at a loss to make it easier...you buy Termites or a Hellbore. You can exchange 2 termites for 1 Mole, you cannot mix Termites/Moles with a Hellbore...
 


Transit time: clock starts when they pass their activation roll (include the turn they activate on).
Failed init. roll: take a hold action like everbody else...move shoot or regroup.
FF and CC stats on the TBM: The TBD may be able make one assault after surfacing, the stats are primarily for that. Since the Cradles and the TBM form one unit while the TBM are prepping having FF and CC stats on the Cradle seemed redundant.
Moving after surfacing: As a single-use option, on the turn they surface the TBM and the transported formation may make one combined engage action. TBM have a speed of 0cm after that.



points cost and playablility are experienced-based. this is used for close support and gets mixed in with assaults alot, they die like everything else.



ok...



5cm is nearly the same as immobile, so 10cm is appropriate. I thought that by stating that thy move independently, it was clear they are not required to remain connected, but they become a formation of WE.



the stats are the same for the train and the cars. KISS. As far as the values, they seem to play well enough.



Your comments on the Dragon car and Roadmaker are valid. The stats were changed by Jaldon and I and we both agreed these were subject to change as a fuction of Min-Max playtest examples. I have not got around to addressing it, but you illustration is very useful.

thanks again for your comments!

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Squat/Demiurg Army Co-Champion (in cahoots with Jaldon)

I think a lot of confusion will be cleared up when I put this in a readable pdf format.  Of course it might be easier if I had something to assist me such as -just as an example- some pictures to add to it.  

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Can't wait for the pdf.  it will make collecting the army MUCH easier. as it stands. are Guild bike units going to be a support option or will they be in the main guild options (ie: berserkers/warriors)...

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Red wunz alwayz go fasta.
I traded my ex wife for more minatures.  i'm much happier now.