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| Inquistion allies http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=86&t=13355 |
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| Author: | Lord Inquisitor [ Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Inquistion allies |
Okay, I've been revamping the Inquisition lists and I just wanted to find out how people use the lists, particularly the allies system. There is a staggering array of allies, but I want to know if anyone actually uses anything other than the navy and titans. |
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| Author: | Chroma [ Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Inquistion allies |
I think that varied Inquisitor army lists should have different allies options, not "all Imperial forces" available at all times. Something like "Salodab Uprising Ordo Hereticus Inquisition Army List" might have moderate levels of access to Imperial Guard and Titan formations, while the "Del Stradda Campaign Ordo Xenos Inquisition Army List" might only have Space Marines and Chamber Militant forces available, while a *different* Ordo Xenos list might have few Inquisitorial forces available, but lots of Guardsmen available and a smattering of Blood Angels. They should reflect the troops available to the Inquisitor at a specifc part of a campaign. I don't think the Inquisitorial lists should be so generic... their should be as much room for variant Inquisitorial lists as there are Space Marine Chapters. Just my two credits worth. |
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| Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Inquistion allies |
Note that taking Chroma's approach would also solve my issue with your list ; If there was scope for more Ordos XXX lists beyond just yours, then I wouldn't have any issue with your Gun Cutter & made-up landing craft having a spot in a list or two... |
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| Author: | Lord Inquisitor [ Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Inquistion allies |
Well, this is certainly something I've been pondering, hence this thread. That said, there needs to be a core list for any army that covers all of the main units and variants can be built off that. I do think that there is a real risk of inundating the game with excessive army lists (how can we possibly balance them all against each other?) but equally splitting things up into sub-lists is a possibility I am certainly willing to consider - this has now happened twice with this list (first, radicals were split off, then the ordos split into their own lists). In any case, my lists are and always have been Task Forces - full-scale Ordo deployments. There is a lot of scope for other variations, not least the long-ago-shelved Radicals. |
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| Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Inquistion allies |
(how can we possibly balance them all against each other?) JJ mentions balanced game systems with literally hundreds of army lists in the rulebook Q&A... |
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| Author: | Lord Inquisitor [ Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Inquistion allies |
Good for him. However, actually playtesting becomes virtually impossible as the number of combinations increases exponentially. A hundred lists? That's 10,000 games to play every list against every other list just once. It's not entirely impossible that such a system could be balanced, but the odds of it decrease with the more lists you add. The odds of anyone actually keeping on top of all of the lists also decreases, and with the community approach even keeping units consistent is nigh-impossible. How many Thunderhawk variants do we have now? I'm not saying there should be no variant lists, but there are an awful lot of them. If necessary they can be a great thing, I wouldn't be posting if I didn't think it was a good idea. Then again, there should be a core list, and there should be a defined "feel" for any given sub-list. |
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| Author: | Justiniel [ Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Inquistion allies |
Ultimatly I would like a pure Sisters army, with maybe an Inquisitor, Penitent Engines and Arc-flagelants added, however at the moment if I actually want to play I need allies as the number of units made is so small (guess I'd better get going with that hobby knife  )'tis a difficult one to decide, maybe a Grey Knight army, a Sisters army, an Inquisitor with Guard army and an Inquisitor with SM's army would be the way to go. |
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| Author: | Moscovian [ Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Inquistion allies |
the number of combinations increases exponentially Exponential wouldn't be quite right. The word you are looking for would be 'more'.  Seriously though you are making an assumption that every army list out there needs to be playtested against every other army list out there, which just isn't the case. This entire community operates off the premise that balancing a new list against the core armies is good enough and I don't think that has changed much - perhaps including Chaos in with SMs, IG, Orks, and Eldar. Despite the fact that there are a good number of lists out there, I don't think we're anywhere close to having 'too many'.LI, you and I have discussed this at length but since it is out on the forum... My position is that a core Inquisition list that uses the IG and SMs as Inducted forces should have their options restricted to very basic formations. This will make the list easier to balance and allow variants to be written up in the future. On the Ordos Xenos specifically, IMO the list could lose all the SMs since you already have the Deathwatch units - the regular SMs won't add any real flavor to the list. |
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| Author: | Lord Inquisitor [ Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Inquistion allies |
I'll reply later but a quick request: If you've voted that you use (or plan on using) marine/guard allies can you please let me know what your army list is! Ideally the full list but a rough idea (what sorts of Inquisition units/allies you use in general) would do too. Feel free to PM me if you don't want to post on here. |
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| Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Inquistion allies |
you are making an assumption that every army list out there needs to be playtested against every other army list out there, which just isn't the case. This entire community operates off the premise that balancing a new list against the core armies is good enough Indeed, if I may quote Jervis again: 'No game system is truly balanced, there is only the illusion of balance' There is no true 'balance', there is only good enough... and good enough is good enough... |
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| Author: | Lord Inquisitor [ Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Inquistion allies |
Quote: (Moscovian @ 21 Aug. 2008, 10:58 ) Exponential wouldn't be quite right.  The word you are looking for would be 'more'. Seriously though you are making an assumption that every army list out there needs to be playtested against every other army list out there, which just isn't the case.  This entire community operates off the premise that balancing a new list against the core armies is good enough and I don't think that has changed much - perhaps including Chaos in with SMs, IG, Orks, and Eldar.  Despite the fact that there are a good number of lists out there, I don't think we're anywhere close to having 'too many'. This is getting off topic, but yes I do think that every list should be balanced against every other list. Otherwise you can produce a "rock paper scissors" situation. To give you an example, Storm of Chaos [for Warhammer] brought out a few of these sorts of lists. Dwarf Slayers were one - they simply died to gunline armies but it was virtually impossible to win against them with undead - and if the Slayers were geared against undead it was impossible (Dwarf heroes that could destroy entire regiments of undead in one combat phase by themselves *shudder*). The general thinking was that as they're balanced against the majority of lists that's okay, which I very much disagreed with. The analogy here is that if list A and list B are balanced against Guard, Marines and Orks, that doesn't necessarily follow that they are balanced against each other. The bottom line is that I'm concerned about the number of sub-lists for a number of reasons. Which isn't to say I disagree that it can be balanced, nor that I think sub-lists are necessarily a bad idea (again). Nevertheless, there should be a modicum of thought applied before making one, and just saying "eh, good enough, it can never be fully balanced anyway" is really sweeping the issue under the carpet!   Anyway, back on topic. Here's what I'm thinking: remove the Guard and Marine allies altogether, integrating the most appropriate guard options within the list and making several new lists - an Inquisition/Guard list and a Inquisition/Space Marine list (I was thinking of making this the "Radical list," using Relictors as the Chapter of choice). So I'd like to know what sorts of lists people are using and how badly this could screw up anybody's army. So: post your army lists!   |
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| Author: | scarik [ Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Inquistion allies |
I'd like to see lists that look more or less like the Ordos themselves Malleus - Grey Knights with Storm Troopers Hereticus - Sisters with Storm Troopers Xenos - Marines with Storm Troopers The difference between the Deathwatch and vanilla Marines is pretty much irrelevant in Epic so there's not need for them in the lists. Make some support formations of Guard with a "you may take 1 inducted formation for each core formation" and then just use a general induction list. If you disagree about Marines, if they are restricted as well and somehow different then I might like it. No Ordo inducts Marines when its Chamber Militant is available, and we should really be making lists on common assumptions, ergo the Chamber Militant is always available for large actions. All three lists should have the same Storm Trooper core. |
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| Author: | nealhunt [ Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Inquistion allies |
Not that I've played the list, but I have thought about what I would build/field. I think it would be cool to do an "radical Inquisitor gone bad" army where Tzeentch has begun whispering in his ear.  In that case, the army would be the normal retinue of radical Inq freaks, Inq stormtroopers and IG that he could bully/trick more easily than SM. Plus, a bad-guy Inquisitor gleefully sacrificing IG troops just tickles my fancy (and it would give me another use for my Tzeentch L&D Traitor units).
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| Author: | Lord Inquisitor [ Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Inquistion allies |
Quote: (scarik @ 21 Aug. 2008, 13:16 ) I'd like to see lists that look more or less like the Ordos themselves Malleus - Grey Knights with Storm Troopers Hereticus - Sisters with Storm Troopers Xenos - Marines with Storm Troopers The difference between the Deathwatch and vanilla Marines is pretty much irrelevant in Epic so there's not need for them in the lists. All three lists should have the same Storm Trooper core. Yep, that's pretty much the way I was thinking about, except that I disagree about the Deathwatch not being different from vanilla marines. Basic kill teams are pretty different (heavy bolters, chainswords, funky bolters/ammo and teleport for starters!), but the organisation of DW is also highly different from the Codex. Quote: (nealhunt @ 21 Aug. 2008, 13:21 ) Not that I've played the list, but I have thought about what I would build/field.  I think it would be cool to do an "radical Inquisitor gone bad" army where Tzeentch has begun whispering in his ear.   In that case, the army would be the normal retinue of radical Inq freaks, Inq stormtroopers and IG that he could bully/trick more easily than SM.  Plus, a bad-guy Inquisitor gleefully sacrificing IG troops just tickles my fancy (and it would give me another use for my Tzeentch L&D Traitor units). I always wanted this sort of army to be a possibility. The question is would you like the main list to be flexible enough to accomodate this, or would you prefer a more fringe cookie-cutter sub-list that allows this to be made and potentially gives you more "characterful" options (like Daemonhosts  ) at the expense of flexibility?For example, I was thinking of making a Guard/Inquisition list which allows a Puritan to command a mostly-guard army (perhaps some limited Grey Knight support). The other list would be a Radical, daemonhosts and all, along with dodgy Space Marines. Neither really fits your needs exactly. This is theoretically easier to balance (subject to the above caveat about exponential increase in lists) but it straightjackets people's lists into what I think a "radical" list should be. |
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