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Inquisition Aircraft
Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Inquisition Aircraft
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:29 am 
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Following on from a discussion between E&C and myself on the main Daemonhunters thread, I've been pondering replacing the Pegasus landers from the list with Aquila landers and possibly arvus lighters too. Both of these guys are VTOL craft - which got me thinking about a VTOL rule and it occurred to me that Eisenhorn's gun-cutter was also VTOL-capable.

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of the Inquisitorial craft being capable of acting like Skimmers when landed.

Here are the stats I've thrown together.

http://www.geocities.com/lordinquisitor/VTOL.htm

Yeah, I know the Arvus is normally unarmed. We can call this an Arvus variant and write some fluff about how the craft are adapted for military service. I just like the idea of a turret weapon in the roof, and it'd be a simple conversion. Obviously this could be dropped, but I really don't like the idea of unarmed units in Epic.

While I've retained the previous rules of treating the formation as a seperate warmachine-like formation, these rules would actually allow for aquila landers to be bought as part of a ground formation and simply remain with the ground formation... Food for thought anyway.
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Olly
 Post subject: Inquisition Aircraft
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:55 am 
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I like the stats, they seem balanced. The VTOL rule is a bit  ???  IMO yes the craft are capable of it but so are thunderhawks and the majority of imperial craft, I would keep them as seperate formations from their cargo, as the skimmer transport/gunship role is taken up by the valkyries and vultures.
As for the arvus conversion surely it'd be easy to put the guns in the recesses either side of the cockpit?
Any ideas on points cost yet?
(I'm quite intrigued now with the daemonhunters army)

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Inquisition Aircraft
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:13 am 
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As an alternative why not give them some sort of spacecraft independant planetfall like the tau and just make 'em skimmers?

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Inquisition Aircraft
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:38 am 
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(Olly @ Jun. 18 2008,21:55)
QUOTE
The VTOL rule is a bit ???? ?IMO yes the craft are capable of it but so are thunderhawks and the majority of imperial craft,

While under the Apocalypse rules any flier seems to be able to hover to some degree, under the original Forgeworld rules they couldn't - and the Aquila and Arvus always had a special VTOL rule in 40K. I've not seen the Imperial Armour Apocalypse yet, so I don't know whether they've retained something similar.

Any which way, they've definately got the background to mark these guys out as uniquely able to hover, these are the only units with VTOL rules in 40K (apart from the gun-cutter, of course, but this was definately describes has having VTOL engines in the Eisenhorn trilogy).

Any ideas on points cost yet?

I would say off-the-cuff:
Guncutter - 150
Aquila - 50
Arvus - 30
Glavian Pilot - 75

(I'm quite intrigued now with the daemonhunters army)
Glad to hear it...

As an alternative why not give them some sort of spacecraft independant planetfall like the tau and just make 'em skimmers?
Hmm... a possibility, but I think they really should be true aircraft, able to take off and make strafing runs if necessary. It would be frustrating to be "grounded" by the rules.
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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Inquisition Aircraft
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:46 am 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Jun. 18 2008,19:13)
QUOTE
As an alternative why not give them some sort of spacecraft independant planetfall like the tau and just make 'em skimmers?

I agree. Its simpler that way as well. They are a Skimmer than has a Planetfall ability which represents them landing. Once they have landed they can do VTOL flight as a skimmer.

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Olly
 Post subject: Inquisition Aircraft
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:08 am 
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Personally I agree with the planetfall skimmer as well, it keeps it simpler and carries across the ideas you have without having to invent new rules

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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: Inquisition Aircraft
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:30 am 
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Interesting idea for VTOLs, but I think that the ability to move once landed would create a conflict with losing engagements, is the aircraft destroyed or can it move away? Plus the thought of the end of turn disengagement. I can see this as having the potential to be exploited by powerplayers - not sure how as yet, but I am sure that I could find a way.

I must admit that when I started to read this thread my first thought was Planetfall followed by skimmer as TRC has suggested. Uses existing rules.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Inquisition Aircraft
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:52 am 
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Any which way, they've definately got the background to mark these guys out as uniquely able to hover, these are the only units with VTOL rules in 40K



Incorrect ; The Valkyrie and Vulture both use the same VTOL rules in 40k as the Arvus and the Aquilla.

Notably both of those are 35cm move Skimmers.

Personally, I like the idea of giving them Planetfall, and dropping them out of an Inquisition Spacecraft (Free Planetfall is not suitable as these are not autonomous craft like the Manta, they are short range shuttles).

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Inquisition Aircraft
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:57 pm 
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But the planetfall here E&C is to represent flight, not an orbital drop.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Inquisition Aircraft
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:14 pm 
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Then a Vulture or Valkyrie should be able to have a 'Flight Planetfall' too, surely?

No, the difference here is that the Arvus and the Aquilla can genuinely planetfall.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Inquisition Aircraft
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:31 pm 
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LI, I actually like the idea of keeping the Pegasus and Gun Cutter.  People can always proxy / convert them with the other units if need be and you can include those ideas in a modeling section.

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Inquisition Aircraft
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:32 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Jun. 19 2008,08:14)
QUOTE
Then a Vulture or Valkyrie should be able to have a 'Flight Planetfall' too, surely?

I can't imagine that they are pressurised to withstand a drop from orbit

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Chroma
 Post subject: Inquisition Aircraft
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:44 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Jun. 19 2008,12:57)
QUOTE
But the planetfall here E&C is to represent flight, not an orbital drop.

I think E&C is referring to this point, PG.

What about teleport to represent their arrival "from flight"?

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Inquisition Aircraft
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:05 pm 
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Teleport is pretty strong and I believe that ability is what put the Elysian army into uber-powerful status.  Planetfalling at least means that their arriving turn is committed and known, not to mention the scatter effect.  I'm not sure planetfalling is good either, but teleporting would be very bad.

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Inquisition Aircraft
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:34 pm 
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I'll present some more detailed reponses later, but while I see the attraction for simple planet-falling skimmers, it is still going to require some special rules one way or another - and if we're making a special rule, it might as well represent the aircraft properly. The only way to do it without a special rule would be to attach the aircraft permanently to the formation and then give them planetfall. But the result of this is an under-gunned valkyrie with planetfall. Given that all formations that might make use of these aircraft have access to valkyries anyway, it doesn't add anything to the list.

Unlike the valkyrie/vultures, which really are (to my mind anyway) the 40K equivalent of helicopter gunships, the aquila/pegasus and gun-cutter are full-blown transatmospheric jets. These guys should really be aircraft first.
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