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Squat/Demiurg Development Thread
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=86&t=13020		 Page 1 of 11
Author:  jaldon454 [ Wed Jul 09, 2008 2:08 am ]
Post subject:  Squat/Demiurg Development Thread
Ok, this thread has three objectives.......

(1) To propose fixes for the Squat Thurgrimm's Stronghold List, and to further its development. Last to improve its points balance.

(2) To do the same for the Demiurg list.

(3) To see if a some similarities can be agreed upon concerning the Demiurg/Squat lists while still keeping them separate.

The stated goal is to have the community agree upon the lists needs and balance rather then have the work done in house by Epilgrim's, and my own, small groups.

I think this is needed for both lists so we can at least present a better finished product to the EA community as a whole, rather then the in house work that has been done.

No insult intended here the work on both lists has been well done, its just that both need greater input to proceed to the next, more finished, level.

For more direct information contact Epilgrim for the Demiurg List and my humble self for the Squat List.
Author:  jaldon454 [ Wed Jul 09, 2008 2:37 am ]
Post subject:  Squat/Demiurg Development Thread
For my part here goes on the Thurgrimm's Squat List proposals. Some of these are mine others have been suggested by other players.

(1) Increase the cost of the Goliath Mega-Cannon Battery to 300pts

(2) Increase the cost of the Gun Battery to 200pts

(3) Change the Thunderer Battery to 1 to 4 Thunderers for 50pts each

(4) Reduce the Army to 0-1 Spartan Upgrade of 1-8 Spartans for 25pts each

(5) Increase the cost of the Overlord to 250pts each

(6) Add a Hearthguard upgrade to the Warrior Brotherhood Lord for 50pts

(7) Give the Bezerkers a +1 CC Attack and increase the Cost of the Brotherhood to 200-225pts. The Bezerker upgrade would then go up to 125-150pts. An alternative would be to reduce the Brotherhood to 6xBezerkers and make the cost 175pts.

(8) Change the Thunderers to FF 3+, no points cost adjustment, yet

(9) Remove 'Mounted' from the Tarantula, Thudd Gun, Mole Mortar, and Thunderfire.

(10) Increase the Doom Storm Missiles (Cyclops) and Plasma Missiles (Colossus) to 3xBPMW or 4xBPMW but may them single shot weapons

(11) Increase the cost of the Bomb Battle Car to 200pts

'Stubborn' In numerous games we have found the present Stubborn Rule doesn't give the Squats a huge advantage, as many seem to think. See the batrep in the Battle Report section to see what I mean. As it was real tough to get this to work right in the first place I am loath to change how it works now. The rule reflects the results achieved in SM/TL Squats and they called it Stubborn in that rules set.

If someone wants to purpose a name change to something like 'Determined' then we are open to change it. But the rule itself hasn't been a problem. Besides we have been using it for so long that any points adjustments would be easier to impliment if we don't change it.

'Hellfury Pulse' We have been unable to think of anything else to reflect how the weapon worked in SM/TL other then the present rule. However that doesn't mean we are happy with it. We are wide open to suggestions here.

'Tunnelers' It is simple, it works, and is in the Epic-A rule book as we have it written in the Squat rules. As this is a bedrock rule presented in Epic-A we ar hesitant to change it in the least.

'Demiurg/Squats' This is only our collective, opinion from the local group that is (And I concur), but we think that these two races should remain as separate races. Not only because they are in the 40K history but also because it would make both more interesting and give players of Squats more options. That said, because both are drawn from similar backgrounds and now use the same models it wouldn't be a bad idea to draw some similarities between them. In this we are open for suggestions from the collective minds out there.

Thanks All..................

Jaldon :p
Author:  pixelgeek [ Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:03 am ]
Post subject:  Squat/Demiurg Development Thread
How about calling it "Bloody Determination" instead of "Stubborn"?

The name seems to be the real hold-up so changing it might be an idea.
Author:  pixelgeek [ Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:04 am ]
Post subject:  Squat/Demiurg Development Thread
Can't really see anything that I would disagree with without having to test it a few times. It all seems like reasonable suggestions
Author:  Legion 4 [ Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:06 am ]
Post subject:  Squat/Demiurg Development Thread
Sounds good to me ! :)
Author:  rpr [ Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:54 am ]
Post subject:  Squat/Demiurg Development Thread
Great idea to put them together!

I cannot comment the 2d6/3d6 system as haven't tested it is worth testing.

Thurgrim list:
(sorry if this is old version, it was what I have once found and have no version marking)

Bomb battlecar rad bomb is something like MW2+ TK(d3) use barrage template - so does this mean that roll once for every target inside it, killing on 2+ (3+ on cover) unless WE/inv. save target which takes d3 hits?

Trikes have 4+ FF and EAFFMW ? 6 for 260 - could this be the absolutely best engagement unit ever made? :]

My version does not have cost for Thunder battle car...

As I recall Thunderfires were once sold in sets of 2 - I might be wroing, of course - but on that line I would prefer that they come in sets of 1-2 and have 3x AA

Why is Iron Eagle LV? Looks like Vulture or Valkyrie for me..

Should Overlord be a support craft? Or at least skimmer... The fluff text talks about massed AA batteries but stats have none.


If both Thurgrim and Demiurg are to be saved, they should have identical stats for same units in my opinion... In general in my opinion Demiurg list has better stats for vehicles (trikes, goliaths, thunderfire, iron eagles, iron hawk, overlord,...) but not WEs (colossus, cyclops, land train - those overlapping BPs are not that great)
Author:  epilgrim [ Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Squat/Demiurg Development Thread
for my purpose I agree with Jaldon on the consolidation of unit stats wherever possible, but leave the fictional elements and army lists as seperate and distinct, as Jaldon said more options for the players.

the other factor that I would like to fine tune would be "Stubborn". At last opportunity I had been analyzing a few options and when I can get home I will try to wade through some additional tests to see if the list can be pared down further.

Perhaps a best case option for unit consolidation would be direct comparison of units in small groups, say 3 or four at a time?

ep
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Squat/Demiurg Development Thread
The 3d6 rule - could it be a 'unit' ability given to infantry. You get the 3d6 if any of them die int he assault. Means you don't make a WE assault list. PLus if no Squats die I don't see why they should get any bonus!
Author:  Dave [ Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Squat/Demiurg Development Thread
I haven't been following the previous threads, but was the consensus on LI's idea for stubborn (ie saving throws for hack downs)?
Author:  jaldon454 [ Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:12 am ]
Post subject:  Squat/Demiurg Development Thread
Bomb battlecar rad bomb is something like MW2+ TK(d3) use barrage template - so does this mean that roll once for every target inside it, killing on 2+ (3+ on cover) unless WE/inv. save target which takes d3 hits?

Stats Are Rad Bomb/ Range: Unlimited/Firepower: MW2+ TKD3/ Use big Ordanance Template, One Shot

Like a barrage roll for every target under the template needing a 2+ to destroy most units. Unlike a barrage weapon, because it isn't, roll To Hit WEs scoring TKD3 hits if the 2+ base to hit roll is made.

Trikes have 4+ FF and EAFFMW ? 6 for 260 - could this be the absolutely best engagement unit ever made? :]

Yes the stats are correct they are a FFMW +1 attacks, which means they have one normal attack at FF 4+ and one MW attack at FFMW 4+. So yes they are 6 for 260pts if you upgrade the entire Biker Guild to Trikes. Space Marine Landspeeders cost 40pts each, get ATSKNF, are faster then Trikes, and are Skimmers. Guild Trikes cost the same, are slower, aren't Skimmers, don't have ATSNKF (but Stubborn about equals it), and can't fly over interveining terrain. Looks can be deciseving, they aren't all that awesome in Asasult FF as the stats would make them look, most players use them to back up other assault units, like Bezerkers.

My version does not have cost for Thunder battle car...

150pts

As I recall Thunderfires were once sold in sets of 2 - I might be wroing, of course - but on that line I would prefer that they come in sets of 1-2 and have 3x AA

We did try them at x3 Shots for a time and with a range of 60cms they were too powerful. As the Upgrade allows the player to choose 1-3 Thunderfires, and most of the local Squat players have multiple sets of them the added third Thunderfire option hasn't been a problem. Even if only two are bought four shots at 5+ out to 60cms isn't a bad deal.

Why is Iron Eagle LV? Looks like Vulture or Valkyrie for me..

Because it isn't a Vulture, or a Valkyrie, they are Gunships. The Iron Eagle, as stated in the background, is more akin to the SM Landspeeder so we made it more in line with a heavily armed Landspeeder.

Should Overlord be a support craft? Or at least skimmer... The fluff text talks about massed AA batteries but stats have none.

You must have an old version of the list. Here are the stats....

Overlord Armored Airship (WE)
Speed/Armor/CC/FF
15cm/4+/ 6+/ 4+
Weapon/Range/Firepower
Battlecannon/ 75cm/ AP4+ AT4+ Fixed Forward
2xAutocannons/ 45cm/ AP5+ AT6+ AA5+ Right Side
2xAutocannons/ 45cm/ AP5+ AT6+ AA5+ left Side
Melta Bombs/ 15cm/ 3xBP
Notes: DC-3, reinforced armor, thick rear armor, fearless, skimmer
Critical Hit: Airship Crashes to the ground roll scatter dice and 2D6 for distance., any units under the ship are hit and make a normal armor save.

If both Thurgrim and Demiurg are to be saved, they should have identical stats for same units in my opinion... In general in my opinion Demiurg list has better stats for vehicles (trikes, goliaths, thunderfire, iron eagles, iron hawk, overlord,...) but not WEs (colossus, cyclops, land train - those overlapping BPs are not that great)

This is only my opinion and this thread is for all of us to work in to obtain a better working version of both lists so the following isn't gospel. I think they should have some similarities, with the stress here being on 'some', with the majority of the units fielded being slightly different, and even a number totally different.

My reasoning for this is the Squats are far more 'earth bound' in their nature while the Demiurg live more in space then they do on the surface of any planet. So, for example, the Squats would disdain aircraft and field the present Iron Eagle skimmer, while the Demiurg version wouldn't be a skimmer at all but a true aircraft (And the Demiurg wouldn't have the skimmer. Or the Demiurg would have better versions of the Colossus, Cyclops, Leviathin, and more access to them, because they use them more on a daily basis then Squats who are more settled on planets and now have less need for them. On the flip side the Squats would have better all around Infantry type ground forces, and larger sized base formations, then the Demiurg because their are in general more Squats then Demiurg, and the Squats are more earthbound then the Demiurg so better at true ground warfare.

Thanks for the input......

Jaldon :p
Author:  Legion 4 [ Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:39 am ]
Post subject:  Squat/Demiurg Development Thread
Just a Sidebar ... Exodus War's Khazari would make good Demis ... or Squats ! :D
Author:  Erik M [ Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:25 am ]
Post subject:  Squat/Demiurg Development Thread
Keep them as much apart as possible stat wise. They aren't the same after all. Demiurg are demiurg and squats are squats. Yes, that's a problem when you field and meet them. But better that than small differences.

As it is now there's atleast three "squat" lists. Of which two are for squats and one is for something else.
Author:  rpr [ Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:54 am ]
Post subject:  Squat/Demiurg Development Thread
Quote: (Erik M @ 10 Jul. 2008, 11:25 )

Keep them as much apart as possible stat wise. They aren't the same after all.

I think it is BAD idea to have different stats for the same vehicle in different lists. A rhino is a rhino regardless who drives it.

Of course the infantry stands a different thing. Plus WEs (and some vehicles) could have different weaponload. But things like armor, DC, speed should not be completely different in every list.
Author:  Erik M [ Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:16 am ]
Post subject:  Squat/Demiurg Development Thread
If not the same then really not the same. If the same, then really the same.
So if it's a army list á la space marine or imperial guard etc that have several "flavours" than it's ok with sevceral lists and the same stats.
But that perhaps should be decided first?
Ie is the job here to make the generic squat list?
Author:  epilgrim [ Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Squat/Demiurg Development Thread
Quote: (Erik M @ 10 Jul. 2008, 09:25 )

Keep them as much apart as possible stat wise. They aren't the same after all. Demiurg are demiurg and squats are squats. Yes, that's a problem when you field and meet them. But better that than small differences.

As it is now there's atleast three "squat" lists. Of which two are for squats and one is for something else.

Erik M,

I think you may misunderstand what we are trying to achieve. We are not trying create two completely different sets of units that use similar models.

In the same way that the core armies have been tailored to new ideas Minervans, Inquisition, Dark Angels, Elysians, etc., the purpose is to have two diverengent lists that are based on a common unit pool.

For example, our basic troopers are exactly the same, but the organizational aspects of the formations are quite different which in turn means the tactical use of each is different.

As far as differences, the Squats have the Spartan transport tank, the Demiurg have access to Spacecraft. Their war engines are similar, however, the Squats tend to be more robust, while the Demiurg use a very effective alternate shielding technology.

There are numerous other similarities and differences, some which will dissappear, others may stay the same or even move dramatically apart, but they will be of best use to the community if they are closely related.

ep
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