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Stubborn development thread
epilgrim
 Post subject: Stubborn development thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:19 am 
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The following list are the current suggestions for the representation of Stubborn, a Squat/Demiurg racial characteristic. the purpose of this thread is to narrow down a couple of options for playtesting and comparison against the current list rules.

For anyone interested in contributing or discussing, Stubborn should reflect the morale, resolve and iron-will that are part of the "fantasy Dwarven Archtype", think of Gimli in Space.

Preambles aside let's discuss each suggestion: I have broken them down into basic catagories as it relates to specific game mechanics.



Historical uses of Stubborn for the Squats:

Space Marine ? The infantry could re-roll any close combat dice with a score of one, against Orcs it was a one or two.

Epic 40,000 - The infantry could be upgraded to Veterans, making them Stubborn which allowed them to re-roll leadership tests.


Assault and Morale combined Variant:

Thurgrim?s Stronghold ? Squats are stubborn and are hard to break in assaults, and will rally quicker then other troops to get back into the fight and the following two rules represent this.
(1) Squats roll 3D6 in the final assault roll off, picking the single highest number rolled.
(2) Squats roll 2D6 for rallies picking the highest single number rolled.


Assault variants:

Demiurg Consortium ? All Demiurg are noted for their intractable nature. To represent this characteristic all Demiurg formations, except Autonom Cadres, are considered to be Inspiring and always add a +1 during each round of assault resolution. Note: A formation with a Merchant Prince will have a +2 modifier (+1 for the formation?s Stubborn attribute and +1 for the Merchant Prince?s character profile).

Suggestion #1 ? The squats may choose to fight another round of combat instead of performing the resolution step.

Suggestion #2 ? In Close Combat the Squat opponent does not gain the bonus for out numbering and out numbering by 2:1.


Morale Variants:

Suggestion #3 ? Squats ignore the -1 modifier for enemy formations with 30cm during the Rally phase.

Suggestion #4 ? Give the Squats access to more than one Leader per formation.

Suggestion #5 ? The Squats are given the Leader ability as a Formation Ability. Additionally they would be able to add Leader stands to the formation.


Blast Marker Variants:

Suggestion #6 ? a toned down version of ATSKNF
- count 1 less BM for suppression
- count 1 less BM for assault resolution (minimum of 1)
- count 1 less BM for breaking

Suggestion #7 ? Squat formations remove d6 Blast Markers during the Rally Phase.


Armor Save variant:

Suggestion #8 ? The Squats are allowed to make Armor Saves against automatic kills during Assault Resolution and when shot at while Broken.



I would like to discuss this as actively as possible since we seem to be losing Jaldon in the near future and I would welcome his insight while he is still available.

At present there are too many ideas to poll for preferences but we could very easily start breaking down which ideas see least likely or grossly overpowered.




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zombocom
 Post subject: Stubborn development thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:48 am 
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Suggestion #8 is definately my favourite. It's a kind of semi fearless, a half-way-house to total fearless that I think fits stubborness well.

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Erik M
 Post subject: Stubborn development thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:46 am 
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Yes, I was also toying with the idea of a "save" against blast markers.
But then I opted for the more rule and round following "remove D6 BM before rally". Not the least to keep the number of extar die rolls down and easy to keep track off.

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Ginger
 Post subject: Stubborn development thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:06 am 
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I am coming fresh to this, but it seems to me you are describing two traits; Stubborn and Resolute

IMHO "Stubborn" is a toned down version of "Fearless"; the ability to ignore adversity to some extent. Perhaps like Marines a "stubborn" unit could be resistant to 'hack-down' hits:-When broken it takes two hits to hack down a "stubborn" unit.

"Resolute" is more likely to carry out an action despite set-backs or disadvantages. Perhaps like Orks, a "Resolute" formation could get -1 to activate when assaulting?

------------------------------
With respect to the suggestions, I am less sure about improving Leadership abilities or the combat resolution, partly because of the added complexity, and reject the TSKNF variant for the same reasons; (Thurgrim's, Demiurg, #1, #2, #5, #6).

I do not understand BM removal (#7), but if this is automatic, it will possibly be too powerfull. Likewise, making additional saves against auto-kills (#8) will probably be both too complex and too powerfull.

However, I do like the sound of ignoring neaby enemy when rallying (#3), and see no problem with multiple leaders (#4) - not least because the Orks have similar mechanics

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epilgrim
 Post subject: Stubborn development thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:28 am 
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hi Ginger,

this thread as fresh as your comments, so welcome!

We are really going for just one rule or game effect, as the Squats/Demiurg like every other army need something to define them without going over the top.

Ideally I am looking towards something that is distinct enough from the existing races to enhance the unique models and combat prowess that are what has kept them in demand dispite GW's ambivalence.

I really appreciate your comments about the potentially overpowered rules as this thread is also about removing the least palatable suggestions first and then playtesting the viable ones.

To all,

keep commenting and help trim the suggestions, or come up with original ideas for consideration, thanks!




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Moscovian
 Post subject: Stubborn development thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:34 am 
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However, I do like the sound of ignoring neaby enemy when rallying (#3), and see no problem with multiple leaders (#4) - not least because the Orks have similar mechanics


I concur for the most part.  Although the Demiurg #5 (originally thought up by Erik and echoed by Neal) to me is a little better.  Multiple leaders can still die, leaving a normal remainder behind.  To me, Squats being stubborn are a racial attribute and as such the formation being innately stubborn strikes me as appropriate on some level (a single Leader function per formation).  While Spirit Stones were inappropriate for the Eldar, a similar mechanic for the Squats IMO would be simple, easy to remember, and easy to apply.  This also helps differentiate them from Orks who -without their Nob leaders- collect BMs like a teenage boy collects zits.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Stubborn development thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:38 am 
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I really like Ginger's two suggestions ; Rather than being abstract 'rules' they really give a good 'feeling' to the army.

At least so I reckon. :D

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epilgrim
 Post subject: Stubborn development thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:18 pm 
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Based on what I have seen from all of you I thought of something just now (while doing dishes! Multitasking!)

"Each game turn, Squat/Demiurg formations ignore the first Blast Marker place on the formation, all other effects, such as Hold Actions, extra Barrage BM, losing Assault resolution and casualties are applied as normal."

It's not as powerful as Leader, but it happens ealier in the turn sequence making very useful for each formation without creating a cumulative, and constant effect.

any thoughts?

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Ginger
 Post subject: Stubborn development thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:49 pm 
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An interesting suggestion - weaker opponents would need to shoot inneffectively at it twice to cause the formation to flinch - it might be better if worded something like
    "Stubborn formations ignore the effects of the 1st BM for all purposes except when calculating if the formation is broken"
Incidently, what are the average formation sizes you had in mind here? As we know, formations of <5 are brittle, while those >12 are hard to distract or kill.

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epilgrim
 Post subject: Stubborn development thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:52 pm 
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(Hena @ Jun. 03 2008,12:42)
QUOTE
Well you have to keep track of that (as in single marker on formation, which negates first BM acquired) if I understood that correctly.

fair enough, a Stubborn marker would be a relatively easy thing to manage. Happily this game relies on relatively few status markers, I don't think one additional counter will be a hinderance.

Besides the marking issue, what do you thisnk of the idea?

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