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Stubborn development thread
Moscovian
 Post subject: Stubborn development thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:04 pm 
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Fredmans,

Remember that they are intending to use BOTH 1 & 2 to represent stubborn, not either.  From your post it wasn't clear if you misunderstood or if you were going to ignore #2.

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Shoel
 Post subject: Stubborn development thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:29 pm 
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Ok, I might be alittle late in to the discussion but here are my ideas.
Stubborn to me isn't about increasing your chances of rallying, if your stubborn you wouldn't break. Also it's not mearly a matter of CC but also of breaking due to coming under fire. So to me it's a matter of not receiving BM rather than sheding them quicker.

So my first suggestion (close to discounting the first received BM):
Dwarfs/Squat/Demiurg don't receive BM for "coming under fire".
Really powerful especially against popcorn armies I would say (Maybe an addendum for extra BM for flanking and artillery Fire, so that they only ignore the normal BM not the extras).

Second suggestion (they are stubborn in CC too):
Dwarfs/Squat/Demiurg don't automatically break in a failed CC (but still receives BM from kills so can break due to this. Hackdowns would produce both kills and BM. And you would still get a fall back move (with the same restrictions about enemies).
In effect they give ground but they don't yield.
Also really powerful.

Just suggestions and food for thought. But considering the availability of miniatures I like having powerful units (you don´t need as many miniatures).

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fredmans
 Post subject: Stubborn development thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:37 pm 
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Quote: (epilgrim @ 31 Jul. 2008, 12:07 )

Stubborn - Troops with this special ability are hard to break in assaults, and will rally quicker then other troops to get back into the fight and the following two rules represent this:
(1) Assault: they re-roll any die result of "1" during Assault Resolution. The re-roll result must be kept even if it is a "1".
(2) Rally: they ignore the -1 modifier for enemy formations with 30cm during the Rally phase.

@Moscovian: I meant this suggestion, and I assumed both rules would apply equally.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Stubborn development thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:58 pm 
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Fredmans, I was just making sure, that's all. We're on the same page.  :cool:

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Dave
 Post subject: Stubborn development thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:01 pm 
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Page 7 in fact.

I'll be here all week!

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epilgrim
 Post subject: Stubborn development thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:31 pm 
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Shoel,

With regards to your suggestions:

It's no problem commenting at any time!

As far as ignoring the BM for comIng under fire, this would prove to be too powerful as it nullifies one of the core mechanics, IMO.

We have considered variations on ignoring certain BM effects, but have found most of them difficult to manage or creating weird effects that undermined the games.

On losing assaults but not being broken, this also breaks core mechanics. Even fearless troops break. If I misunderstood your idea, please let me know. Additionally, in case you have not read the whole thread, please do, there is a lot of support for how we have progressed in our development of stubborn.

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Stubborn development thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:58 pm 
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Quote: (jaldon454 @ 31 Jul. 2008, 19:34 )

I like it too, but it's hard for me to tell for sure without play testing it.


Actually I have playtested both, and I liked the present suggestion better then the hack down idea. Give them a go DS tell me what you think.

Jaldon :p

I'm going to give them a try at some point, but I am willing to bow to your greater experience.  :;):

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Dave
 Post subject: Stubborn development thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:03 pm 
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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Stubborn development thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:14 pm 
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Quote: (Dave @ 01 Aug. 2008, 11:03 )

Bring them Sunday if you can make it.

I was thinking about it, but I'm not sure if I'll have the time to create a brand new army.

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jaldon454
 Post subject: Stubborn development thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:33 pm 
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Ok, I might be alittle late in to the discussion but here are my ideas.
Stubborn to me isn't about increasing your chances of rallying, if your stubborn you wouldn't break. Also it's not mearly a matter of CC but also of breaking due to coming under fire. So to me it's a matter of not receiving BM rather than sheding them quicker.


Late is fine, honest we don't mind, in fact please continue to post we want input from the players (We ain't perfect). 'Stubborn' is the word we are using for this Squat/Demiurg special rule, right now it may change, so do not infer that it is the exact effect that we are trying to create.

Dwarfs/Squat/Demiurg don't automatically break in a failed CC (but still receives BM from kills so can break due to this. Hackdowns would produce both kills and BM. And you would still get a fall back move (with the same restrictions about enemies).
In effect they give ground but they don't yield.
Also really powerful.

This is almost exactly the rule we once used for the Tyranid Army, without the collection of BMs. It not only would make them NOT 'give ground', they would actually be able to use the free break move to redeploy anywhere they want, as per the rules a formation may use the 'Break' move to go in any direction.

In effect a Formation could stand against an assault, be broken by that assault, use the assault move to redeploy to a better position, and then be activated and move again.

So it would create an unintended effect of giving the Squats 'free moves', making them far more mobile then they should be.

We may not agree with every suggestion given by players during the development of these two combined lists, but we do listen and consider. For myself I write them all down so that I can review them so when I get stuck on something I can go over that list. Often an idea pops up off the page and present a solution not directly intended under the original posted suggestion.

Thanks All.........

Jaldon :p

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Shoel
 Post subject: Stubborn development thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:30 am 
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This is almost exactly the rule we once used for the Tyranid Army, without the collection of BMs. It not only would make them NOT 'give ground', they would actually be able to use the free break move to redeploy anywhere they want, as per the rules a formation may use the 'Break' move to go in any direction.

Well not exactly, you would still have to keep outside of 20cm a difficult prospect for 15cm move if you want to "fall forward".

As far as ignoring the BM for comIng under fire, this would prove to be too powerful as it nullifies one of the core mechanics, IMO.
Powerful was my biggest reserv about my own idea as well.

We have considered variations on ignoring certain BM effects, but have found most of them difficult to manage or creating weird effects that undermined the games.
That's whats best about my idea no book keeping.

On losing assaults but not being broken, this also breaks core mechanics. Even fearless troops break.
Isn't breaking the core mechanics one of the points for new rules and abilities? As I see it most armies include some breaking of rules to give racial feel.

'Stubborn' is the word we are using for this Squat/Demiurg special rule, right now it may change, so do not infer that it is the exact effect that we are trying to create.
Definately worth remembering, but still a good word for how I see things. Dwarfs are intractable, when they've set their mind on something they won't budge. This is not simulated by having them first break and then rally easier. But by not breaking in the first situation. And also I still stand by my view that the Stubborn trait would'nt be applicable in CC only.

If I come across defensive of my oppinions please take no heed. I'm aware that my rule suggestions were a bit on the powerful side (especially combined :whistle: ), but the point was more in giving examples of what I ment by breaking less easy. I just felt that you are working in the wrong direction (IMHO).

/Staffan

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jaldon454
 Post subject: Stubborn development thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 3:48 pm 
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If I come across defensive of my oppinions please take no heed.


Wouldn't be much of a debate if everyone just agreed, so not a problem. Ideas, thoughts, and most importantly results from playtesting are what we want.

Well not exactly, you would still have to keep outside of 20cm a difficult prospect for 15cm move if you want to "fall forward".

Rule 1.13.3 Withdrawal 2nd paragraph, 1st sentence
"A formation making a withdrawal may make two moves. Withdrawal moves may be in any direction, but if a unit ends the second withdrawal move within 15cm of the enemy, it is destroyed. Units may ignore enemy zones of control while making a withdrawal move but may not move directly over enemy units."

In effect, using your suggestion, an unactivated Squat formation of Warriors could be assaulted, lose, and then make a 30cm Withdrawal Move (Two moves each of 15cms) further into the enemy position, or to reposition itself. Because it is not broken it may then activate to move, assault, engage etc...(Not to forget to mention if it Withdrew forward probably be in a position to cause a crossfire). If it moved the Free Withdrawal move will have increased the distance it can move by 30cms at the start, if the Warriors doubled then for the turn they will have moved 60cms, or a march making it 75cms. Squats are supposed to be a slow moving, dogged force that uses lots of firepower, this rule would make them almost as mobile as the Eldar.

Just imagine a Colossus, which is fearless and can ignore ending a Withdrawal Move ending within 15cms of an enemy, getting a free 30cm move, then being able to move again up to a further 45cm :oops:

Isn't breaking the core mechanics one of the points for new rules and abilities? As I see it most armies include some breaking of rules to give racial feel.

Not always.

For example Orks get a bonus on their activation roll for an Engage Action, in and of itself the bonus doesn't change the core game mechanics of how formations activate.

You will find most special rules are modifications to, or in addition to, core game mechanics, rather then ignoring or totally changing core game mechanics.

The Eldar Redeployment Move after Assaults is far larger then anyone else's Redeployment move, but it doesn't change the core game mechanics of how redeployment works, only increases the distance they are allowed to move. If the redeployment move allowed them to Assault again or Shoot then it would be a change to core game mechanics as they apply to Redeployment.

If one were to write a rule that states "The Firestorm SM Marines are vicious in assaults refusing to accept defeat in the Emperor's name and always counter-attack immediately. When broken in an assault instead of carrying out a Withdrawal Move the Firestorm Marines initiate a new Assault against their opponents immediately." This is changing the core game mechanics on how a Withdrawal Move works. If done then there better be a real heavy negative effect for allowing them to have this special rule.

As the Nid AC we did break a bunch of the core game mechanics in an attempt to reflect the real alien nature of the bugs, it by and large has failed. Recently we have returned to using the the core game mechanics as they are written and instead used modifications of the same to reflect the Nids alien nature. It is working far better then our earlier attempts.

Thanks for the reply, keep posting, and I hope this helps you understand better what I was trying to say concerning core game mechanics.

Jaldon :p

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Erik M
 Post subject: Stubborn development thread
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 3:31 pm 
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Space dwarf, squat. Could it be from squatting? Maybe that's why the Emperium of Mankind doesn't like them? They are "squatting" what should be human worlds...  :whistle:

Anyhow, stubborn.
"Grandpa, isn't this enough beating to retreat?"
"No little grandson, this is where we refuse to break and fight on!"

How about an immediate rally test when breaking?
This might sound effective but will more often than not be with a -3 modifier and always at least -2 ("Formation is Broken").
This would occur after "hack down hits" but before withdrawal.

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epilgrim
 Post subject: Stubborn development thread
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 12:37 am 
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the topic of special rules are always worth discussing, but at present we are holding onto the rules as is so we see what effect they are having on gameplay. no sense in throwing out something that isn't broke (yet).

bat reps with specific notes will help the list adjustments.

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zombocom
 Post subject: Stubborn development thread
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 2:38 am 
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I really don't like the current stubborn rule. It's just unfair for the opponent to assault, win well then have the squat player reroll and win a combat.

Stubborn should make squats harder to break, but it definately shouldn't make it easier for them to break enemies like the current version does.

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