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Epic:Armageddon... Like Apocalypse but for grown-ups.

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On further gaming and a variety of opponents I have concluded the my original version of stubborn really does not fit Stubborn, it yields little or no effect and only occasionally could be regarded as "annoying". So the Demiurg version of Stubborn is leaving the discussion.

Additionally, the toned down version of ATSKNF is being discarded as we are closing in on much more representative variations.

Suggestion #11  being able to add more than one leader still seems not in keeping with the structure of either army list...

Right now what I am considering is Thurgrim's original rule combined with Suggestions 3 and 14. Some variant of this may prove to be the right fit and very Squat/Demiurg.

Thurgrim's Stronghold - Squats are stubborn and are hard to break in assaults, and will rally quicker then other troops to get back into the fight and the following two rules represent this.
(1) Squats roll 3D6 in the final assault roll off, picking the single highest number rolled.
(2) Squats roll 2D6 for rallies picking the highest single number rolled.

Suggestion #3 - Squats ignore the -1 modifier for enemy formations with 30cm during the Rally phase.

Suggestion #14 - One thought on the subject would be to allow the Squats to re-roll any dice that comes up as a "1" in the assault roll off. Thus allowing them to never suffer the negative of a pair of ones, but allowing a better chance for a pair of twos. (editors note: as this idea comes from Jaldon, I would suggest this be considered as a toned-down version of the original Thurgim's assault resolution rule)

any input or testing would be highly appreciated.

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Squat/Demiurg Army Co-Champion (in cahoots with Jaldon)

3d6 in assaults and re-rolling 1's seems like overkill.  At that point, you've shifted both the average and the distribution to the point that it's considerably better than just a straight +1 in resolution.

2d6 - average is ~4.5, chance of 6 is ~30%, 5 is ~25%
3d6 - average is ~5.0, chance of 6 is ~45%, 5 is ~30%
3d6, reroll 1's - average is ~5.2, chance of 6 is ~50%, 5 is ~30%

The increase on the average is almost as good as the +1 and the consistency more than makes up for the shortfall.

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Neal

I may be mistaken, but I think the concept is to have the re-roll of '1's be in lieu of the extra die roll, not in addition to it.  Suggestion #14 is a separate idea.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

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Neal,

Sorry if the idea was not clear...the idea is not to enhance the Thurgrim rule.

The options would be 3d6 OR re-roll 1's during assault resolution,

AND

2d6 OR ignore the -1 for enemy within 30cm during rally.

Hope that clears up the current test options.

Wow, combining those ideas in a cumulative manner would be icky...

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Squat/Demiurg Army Co-Champion (in cahoots with Jaldon)

Ah.  Whoops.  Nothing to see here.  Move along.

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Neal

Neal at present I have run a number of flash games, and one 3,000 point game using the following in place of the 2D6/3D6

Rally: No -1 for enemy within 30cms

Assault Resolution: Roll 2D6 re-rolling any ones that come up.

Seems to work OK, especially the Rally, but not so much the Assault resolution. That said I am beginning to like the more subtle effect the two have.

For example I wasn't afraid to hurl the stunties into an assault where I knew it would be close because I wouldn't have a resolution roll less then two. On the flip side it didn't always pan out either, that losses thing kept getting in the way.

For now we are still calling it stubborn.

Thanks all..................

Jaldon

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I know a dead parrot when I see one and I'm looking at one right now.
Tyranid AC

After a few rounds of discussion and serveral test games, both Jaldon and I are convinced that Stubborn is firming up as a Demiurg/Squat ability. Playtesting notes and breaking down problems will be greatly appreciated.

Stubborn - Troops with this special ability are hard to break in assaults, and will rally quicker then other troops to get back into the fight and the following two rules represent this:
(1) Assault: they re-roll any die result of "1" during Assault Resolution. The re-roll result must be kept even if it is a "1".
(2) Rally: they ignore the -1 modifier for enemy formations with 30cm during the Rally phase.

unified unit stats are gelling! see updates soon!

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Squat/Demiurg Army Co-Champion (in cahoots with Jaldon)

I really like that latest Stubborn idea.

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Fear is for the enemy, fear and bullets.
-James O'Barr, the Crow

I agree, I like the way that rule looks!

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I like it too, but it's hard for me to tell for sure without play testing it.

Has any thought been given to the idea of allowing armor saves for hackdowns? I thought that was a good way to represent stubbornness.

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"I don't believe in destiny or the guiding hand of fate." N. Peart

I like it too, but it's hard for me to tell for sure without play testing it.

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I know a dead parrot when I see one and I'm looking at one right now.
Tyranid AC

DS,

here are my notes from earlier in the thread...

Suggestion #8: The Squats are allowed to make Armor Saves against automatic kills during Assault Resolution and when shot at while Broken.

Results: given the decent armor saves the Demiurg enjoy this makes them even tougher giving them an ability similar to ATSKNF although it does require a saving throw. It allowed the Demiurg the chance to get back in the fight, but the formation doesn't suffer the effects of losing assaults as intended by the rules, it watered down the victory for the opponent and preserves the strength of the Demiurg. SM, Eldar and especially IG and Orks suffered enhanced casualties due to surviving Demiurg.

Conclusions: Survivability does not really cover stubborn. This gives them toughness that is too similar to Marines. Given their overall numbers it minimizes assault results. I don't think this will work for them.

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Squat/Demiurg Army Co-Champion (in cahoots with Jaldon)

Hello again! I have been busy building Epic armies for our gaming group, and we have now begun to play it in earnest. I feel that the latest suggested version of Stubborness is a step in the right direction, and has that "dwarven" feel to it. I will give it "official" status in our next game's night.

With the "latest suggested version", I mean the rallying modifier and re-rolling "1":s in assault resolution.

Great to see the activity on this forum. Keep it up, Jaldon and epilgrim.

/Fredmans

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Agreed!

Many thanks to you guys (and all the other contributers) for all your hard work here. My brother has a Squat army waiting for me to assemble/paint and it looks like we'll have a much more polished list to play with.

Steve.

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