Hena,

I am very familiar with Moscovian's position on Special Rules and on this particular unit, however, I am not entirely sure I understand your reasoning. You think the rule for the Gorgon should be removed, but it is ok for Tyranids to have the same rule?

Why is Walker unsuitable for Tyranids, yet fits this unit better?

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Squat/Demiurg Army Co-Champion (in cahoots with Jaldon)

The 4 DC on the Leviathan profile is a problem. I can see if adding DC helps.

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Squat/Demiurg Army Co-Champion (in cahoots with Jaldon)

If you are going to take my observations seriously, then I will expand on those observations when I get a little bit more time. I am not being flippant, and I understand the troubles you go through as an AC. It is just a fact that I personally do not like being dismissed in a sarcastic way when I have (what I see as) valid questions.



I would hope as the AC you could give some quick fire examples from these past discussions in relation to observations. If there are reasons, then that is fine. However they are not evident from the list or from your responses.

Like I said, I will come back to this with further in-depth observations of the points and see if I can either change the thinking, or be "educated" in the reasonings for something not conforming to another view.

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Frogbear is responsible for...
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I believe it was tested at 6dc with 2 void shields, so yes tougher.

But even so the beast is tougher than say a brace (7) of chimera (10 1/2 hits to kill all the chimera vs 16 baring criticals) with more CC and FF hits as well (8/3 compared to 7/3 FF), all the WE benefits and all its guns. Stick it on a road and you are laughing. Hell march it up 60cm and next turn activate the formation inside followed by the leviathan itself (if you don't simply disembark into cover).

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sadly the only viable exchange for speed seems to be additional DC, which would mess up the uniformity of the MCF platform.

needs a few run throughs to consider...thanks for the notes on the CI.

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Squat/Demiurg Army Co-Champion (in cahoots with Jaldon)

Mosc. You know nothing. Those that know nothing should keep their uneducated opinion to themselves. Especially when we have a less than favourable history.



Do you really want to start this...?

Keep it civil.

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Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats

Without retreading or clashing further I did answer most of your observations in a very direct manner that does not require detailed examples or fact finding.

AS you may have note two of your observations spawned discussion into practical application of the rules and the reasoning behind them without requiring reference or research. Everyone who contributed was "up to speed" and adds thier own sense of the concepts allowing the discussion to flow regardless of outcome.

As AC I have agreed to continue to develop the lists and provide support, however I do not have time to function as a historian or librarian for each member of Tactical Command; my own time is limited and I rely on folks here to browse or search the threads if they are coming to the discussion fresh.

I look forward to hearing what you have to say, and the basis for it, whenever you have the opportunity.

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Squat/Demiurg Army Co-Champion (in cahoots with Jaldon)

Ok, I see your point. As for sticking to the Collector's profile (mostly) the Gorgon was a particularly tough AV just below WE but designed as survivable - hence the special rule.

It is probably more to the point that so few people have them or have seen them fielded that this topic is rarely discussed.

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Squat/Demiurg Army Co-Champion (in cahoots with Jaldon)

Personally I had been thinking I'd likely sell off the small squat army I'd inherited (as they're not seen much in current W40k), but thinking about it I realised that was really stupid reasoning and that they're a fun and different army that I'll will keep and game with. There are lots of other armies I'll probably try first but I will the short chaps a try some time down the line.

Few comments on the list and the discussion:

I'd say Walker would be best for the Gorgon rather than a special rule. It is a sturdy vehicle with an armoured prow but it shouldn't be able to go straight through dense woods or ruined buildings as though they weren't there.

There are precedents for other bike scout units in both W40k and epic - e.g. SM Scout Bikers and certain Ork bikers in the Speed Freaks list. The former and the Squat ones could drive quietened ones but the Ork bikes are characteristically noisy.

Airship doesn't have to have low-tech connotations, it seems quite feasible to me a high tech one could fly lowish to the ground and so use cover as a skimmer. Iron Eagles are large and clearly Armoured Vehicles too.

It doesn't want to seem to let me download the siegemasters pdf at the mo but what are the rapiers and tarrantulas profiled as there? Probably best to follow the lead of there re: mounted or not IMO since these are basically the same guns.

Think 15cm for the Leviathan sounds more sensible than 20cm, but this is without personal testing.

Didn't all Squats used to move 10cm in the SM/TL days or am I mis-remembering? That limits their mobility horribly, but seemed very characteristically for short little legged troops.

Frogbear, I am hard pressed to find a civil tone in your posts within this thread. That isn't me being uncivil; it is me being observant.  And leave it to you to focus on negative things as opposed to the fact that I agree with half your arguments.  You calling me uneducated would be not only incorrect but obtuse.  Whereas I made an assumption based on this thread...

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums/ ... l=frogbear

... I found it unlikely for you to lie about having a child and you don't seem like the type to stick your wife with all the hard work.  Given that your tone did/does suck, you missing sleep seemed like the most plausible explanation.  In a convoluted way, I was coming to your defense.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

GlynG, I agree with you.  ePilgrim and I have played this army into the ground and it is IMO well done.  However, just because it works mechanically doesn't mean something isn't out of sorts with it.  15cm seems to be the upper limit for something like this given it is the same core technology as Imperial WE's.  If something else in the stats needs to be modified because of it, then so be it.

However, I am not convinced the unit couldn't suffer a -5cm on its move and still be just fine.  I would playtest them but I seem to be missing pictures to help me ID which units are what. (glances over at ePilgrim then looks away)

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

This is part of a set of very recent comments that I will consider. I am mulling an adjustment to the profile and the use of Walker.

Siegemasters rely primarily on fixed positions; the Demiurg are more flexible and adding Mounted to the profile would limit one of their core formations and upgrades. Suffice to say these profiles work for this army.

I am revisiting this along with the Gorgon, there are plenty of gameplay reasons to consider both sides of the issues, but they cannot be discussed and resolved without playtesting the impact.

True, they did move at 10cm in SM/TL, but that is not acceptable for Epic Armageddon. At this scale considering their ability to move at 2/3rds the speed of standard infantry is a unnecessary rationalization. As for fluff reasons: In a strictly fictional sense a creature from a high gravity environment would potentially have much quicker reactions and be proportionally faster and stronger than a being from a normal grav environ. (BTW: I stole that rationale from John Carter, Warlord of Mars and the Honor Harrington series).

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Squat/Demiurg Army Co-Champion (in cahoots with Jaldon)

Siegemaster Thudd gun and rapier is not mounted, just normal 10cm move infantry.

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If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x