I'll take your advice and get my force up and running so I can get a few games down against Chroma.

From "paper" it seems limited, but frome experience I know that things can be misleading thats why I'm not like " you are wrooooong with your OWN list you've created". That would be silly .

I actually got my 2 leviathans, colossus, more infantry and some overlords in the mail on x mas eve so I'll be getting at them shortly.

Still waiting on my Iron eagles and Gorgons.

I dont think you get many people ordering an entire army off of ebay just to playtest. hahaha. I'm not right in the head though....probably why I play epic .

I plyaed my first game today with the consolidated list, a 3k game against Dave's Tyranids. Dave is going to try to post a batrep. A few observations:

1. The army list states that you can take one support for each two core formations. Is this correct? Should it be two support formations per core formation?

2. It seems a little odd to me that Bikes aren't a core formation. Is this on purpose?

3. An upgrade for all core formations is "guns", but under the upgrades list there is no "guns" entry.

4. The Spartan - what does it look like? I don't remember ever seeing a pic of one.

5. Given the lack of armored vehicles and the 2:1 ratio of core to support formations, the 1/3 restriction on WEs seems a bit restrictive.

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"I don't believe in destiny or the guiding hand of fate." N. Peart

spartans are better rhino's.


Are you talking about the thurgrimm list?

Problems on Tunneler, actually there is no reason for people use Termite.

Mole: 25pts each
Mole Armor:4+ CC:6+ FF:5+
RD2D/(15cm)/small arms +1 attacks
Transport (4)

Termite: 15pts each
Mole Armor:5+ CC:6+ FF:5+
RD2D/(15cm)/small arms
Transport (2)

As you can see, if I need to transport a Warrior Brotherhood, I need 3 Mole or 6 Termite. 3 mole will cost me 75 pts or 6 termite which will cost me 90 pts. So use Mole which is cheaper and higher armor and extra FF attack. Should we just lower the pts of Termite or higher the pts of Mole ??

But if you elect to take Termites instead, they help the formation soak up more blast markers.  Swings and roundabouts.

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I thought I'd pop in here, given that I had my first game against Demiurg at the Baltimore Epic Tournament (aka Games Day, apparently there were some 40K/Fantasy players there too...). I can give you some feedback on a first-time experience playing the list.

Overall, it seemed a nice list to play against. There were definately weaknesses. Some very powerful units - durable, offensive and extremely fast AA, terminators on bikes   - but they didn't seem too powerful. In fact, with hindsight, I think I drastically overreacted to the bike-terminators, landing an unreasonable number of angry Grey Knights on them far too early in the game. The strategy rating of 3 seems a little odd - I would have said a low SR would be more in-keeping with the "alien dwarf" feel.

I have only two complaints:

Stubborn.

I really don't like the mechanic, if this is in any way possible to change. It's really not very fun to fight tooth and nail to score points in combat, roll dice and then have you reroll a duff roll. It also doesn't sit well with me - yeah, you're stubborn. That's like Fearless, only not quite, right? Your guys just don't give up or run away. So explain to me why this means that you're more likely to win combat when I'm killing your guys? Fearless means your guys don't die when I kick your arse. Stubborn means that MY guys die when I kick your arse. What?

Statistically speaking, it's extremely powerful, and it can really swing combats. Let's say I win combat by 1 and I roll a 4 as my highest roll. You score a 1 and a 2. You reroll and get a 6. You go from losing by 3 to winning by 1. Thats a really BIG DIFFERENCE! That's not "your guys are pretty stubborn and won't run away even if we kill them" so much as "your guys are on super magic juice"...

The probability of rolling a 5 or a 6 on either of two dice is 0.55 (i.e. a decent assault resolution roll). Now, add in the re-roll, the probability goes to 0.68. Over 10% increase, not only that but the probability of rolling a 1 or 2 (i.e. a really bad assault roll) goes from 0.11 to 0.05. That's a fairly significant boost, FAR more powerful than assuming each formation has a free inspiring character.

So I don't like it. It's frustrating - your heart leaps when you see that "1" before you remember, it really isn't a Fearlessish analogue as it impacts the outcome of the assault not whether you run away. It also doens't protect you from suffering extra hits or being broken from shooting.

Alternative possibilities:

1) Stubborn provides a save against hackdown hits
2) Stubborn allows a formation that loses combat to take the hits yet fight another round of combat instead of withdrawing
3) Stubborn provides some kind of TSKNF type resilience against BM

Deflector shields

The second thing I didn't like was your strange deflector shield thingies. I dislike anything that just cancels out a special rule (yeah, I don't like living metal either, was a stupid idea in 40K in the first place). The idea of a forcefield that stops macro weapons or titan killers but has no effect on small arms seems odd. The net result is that the sorts of weapons I bring along to twat war engines are unsuitable so these mighty war engines are going to get attacked by guys with swords and pistols. I guess it isn't unbalanced per se, but it seems odd. The other thing was these fields apparently work in close combat, yet most force fields don't as troops can enter the field. I thought the old squat vehicles just had Voids? Was there some reason they couldn't just have Voids?

But overall I had a terrific game and the list seemed largely fine to me, so   from me - it's easier to write about what I didn't like than what I did, so my enthusiasm for Xenos has been somewhat boosted.

I haven't played against the new stubborn rules yet.  I have my reservations about them as well and told Jaldon/ePilgrim that I thought the function of stubborn should be related to BMs somehow (extra 1 or 2 BMs to break perhaps).  

Deflector shields irritate me too, but for different reasons.  I felt they should be closer to the Tau shields since the Demiurg and Tau allegedly share technology.  With that said, I see no problem with the concept behind them.  This is a classic sci-fi concept that extreme power is met with extreme resistance, found the Dune novels and others.

Fighting the Demiurg is a lot like fighting the Imperial Guard.  They are a well rounded force that seems to become more powerful at high point formations as their diverse talents combine.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

you both probably need to re-read the Stubborn Development thread...

Jaldon and I tried out all of the various suggestions in several different situations.

the items we kept were the ones that seemed most thematic and less overpowering than other options, and that does include hack downs and spirit stones.

Overall it did not contribute to overall gameplay as all of my games were close fights and included me losing several assaults regardless of the re-rolls.

regarding the Particle Sheilds, the rules were developed to illustrate a divergent technology similar to Voids and definitely less effective than Living Metal. overall while it may tweak players by cancelling out the occasional TK shot, I specifically gave all of my opponents tactical advice on how to neuter my Mobile Combat Fortress'.

Due to thier low DC they are very vulnerable to suppression, both Lord Inq. and Arron used that advice well and kept them broken or very nearly destroyed...so I don't see the Particle Shield as anything that needs a further change at present.

If future battle reports show a trend towards them being the basis for victory repeatedly then I will be compelled to reconsider.

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Squat/Demiurg Army Co-Champion (in cahoots with Jaldon)

No batreps from the tournament.  Each game was actually cut short because of the late start, so nothing was written down for any of them AFAIK.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Stubborn - Troops with this special ability are hard to break in assaults, and will rally quicker then other troops to get back into the fight and the following two rules represent this:
(1) Assault: they re-roll any die result of "1" during Assault Resolution. The re-roll result must be kept even if it is a "1".
(2) Rally: they ignore the -1 modifier for enemy formations with 30cm during the Rally phase.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

playtests and bat reps are key to best solutions. let's see some feedback on where we are now before the list is changed again.

Jaldon and I have put in a ton of work and been very clear on what we wanted our list to depict. we need Squat/Demiurg players to provide examples that highlight what works and what doesn't.

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Squat/Demiurg Army Co-Champion (in cahoots with Jaldon)

On the Demiurg list there's something I don't get with the Cyclops. It is listed as firing the turreted mag-cannon and one other weapon only. The squat list puts the limit on the hellfury allowing that plus turreted battlecannon only.

So the squats can fire the battlecannon, both melta-cannons and the missiles but the demiurg must choose 1 weapon (1 of the 2 Crucible cannons, missiles or hellfury) plus the mag-cannon to fire. The hellfury doesn't make up for the extremely limited firing options.

Jaldon and I went to great lengths to consolidate our lists and we were very successful.

Regardless we did agree to disagree on a few units,such as the Cyclops. (see below)

Demiurg Cyclops Mobile Combat Fortress
Type / Speed / Armour / Close Combat / Firefight
War Engine / 15cm / 4+ / 3+ / 3+
Weapon / Range / Firepower / Notes
Battle Cannon / 75cm / AP 4+/AT 4+ / Turret, All Round
Hellfury Particle Cannon / 90cm 2x MW 2+ (TK 2) / Titan Killer, Fixed Forward
2x Crucible Cannons / 30cm / 2x 3+ MW / Ignore Cover, Fixed Forward
Doomstorm Missiles / 60cm / 4 BP  / Indirect Fire, Macro-weapon, All Round
Notes: Damage Capacity (4), Particle Shielding, Reinforced Armour, Thick Rear Armour, Fearless
Critical Hit: A critical hit does an extra point of damage.
Special: Power Flux: Due to the extreme power requirements of the weapon system on this combat fortress only one weapon in addition to the turreted Battle Cannon may be fired per turn.


Squat Cyclops
Type / Speed / Armour / Close Combat / Firefight
War Engine / 15cm / 4+ / 3+ / 3+
Weapon / Range / Firepower / Notes
Battle Cannon / 75cm / AP 4+/AT 4+ / Turret, All Round
Hellfury Particle Cannon / 90cm 2x MW 2+ (TK 2) / Titan Killer, Fixed Forward
2x Melta Cannons / 30cm / MW4+, Forward/Left Side and Small Arms, +1 Extra Attack
2x Melta Cannons / 30cm / MW4+ , Forward/Right Side and Small Arms, +1 Extra Attack
Doomstorm Missiles / 60cm /4 BP, Macro Weapon, All Round
Notes: Damage Capacity (6), Reinforced Armour, Thick Rear Armour, Fearless
Critical Hit: A critical hit does an extra point of damage.
Special: Power Flux: Due to the extreme power requirements of the Hellfury weapon system only the turreted Battle Cannon may be fired when the Hellfury is fired.

In addition to the Damage Capacity differences, the Squat and Demiurg secondary weapon systems are different due to changes in tactical and strategic application of the Cyclops. The Demiurg Cyclops performs as a multi-role battle platform able to engage all types of targets at various ranges, while the Squat Cyclops is designed to perform a more direct support role in a clearly defined range band.


So really it will be player or should I say opponent feedback that may reshape these profiles. For consistancy I would prefer that they were identical. Try one or both and let us know how you find them.

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Squat/Demiurg Army Co-Champion (in cahoots with Jaldon)

Here is a theme question for the developers:

IF you had all of the unit stats identical, what would be the benefit of playing one list over the other?  Not that one list would necssarily be more powerful but what are there main functions?

Minervans are an armored force.
Steel Legion are the well rounded IG list.
Elysians are the light attack special forces type.
Cadians are more infantry based.
DKOK are siege breakers.
Siegemasters are kings of defense.

Each list brings something different to the table.  So what is it that each Squat list is trying exemplify?  One thing you will notice in each variant list is that there is typically a few units or special rules or both that help distinguish the list's theme.  What are they for these two?

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.