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4K Fir Iolarion 4.2.6 vs Skitarri 2.1

 Post subject: Re: 4K Fir Iolarion 4.2.6 vs Skitarri 2.1
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:14 pm 
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Markconz wrote:
Sorry, I don't see how the list as written reduces the unit to two units? Neither apparently did my opponent?


Ah sorry, it doesn't. Version 2.03 had the formation limited to two minorus. I reintroduced the option for a third unit with 2.1.

EDIT: was too hard to type this on my phone so had to wait till I got home. They are fearsome weapons on paper and do pack a punch on the table. A similar complaint was lodged when we had them at 6x MW2+ originally and they got used a good bit in the AU tourney scene that year. We dropped the shots to 5x based on feedback and they've felt right since.

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 Post subject: Re: 4K Fir Iolarion 4.2.6 vs Skitarri 2.1
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:27 am 
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Ok cheers, do you want to do a corrected list for the next game on Tuesday in case Andrew decides to give it another go? ;)

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 Post subject: Re: 4K Fir Iolarion 4.2.6 vs Skitarri 2.1
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:43 pm 
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If you want to try out 50 points for the clp I think that's the only change at the moment

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 Post subject: Re: 4K Fir Iolarion 4.2.6 vs Skitarri 2.1
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:04 am 
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Ok but then I think this is still too cheap if that is the intention.
3 Ordinatus Minorus (1 Carapace Landing Pad, 2 Quake Cannons, 3BP, MW) [550]

Fearless artillery that is protected by void shields and reinforced armour. You could do six hits on it with zero chance of damage. Part of the balance for artillery in original lists was its fragility. This not only lacks fragility it has MW firepower. Compared to other IG artillery of any composition it would be a no brainer decision to take this instead and that is not a sign of good balance. This seems to be common problem with some of these newer lists we've tried recently, overpowering of units when you look at comparable ones in the established approved lists. There was a design principle some years ago that you should aim to err on the side of overpointing rather than underpointing new lists and I think that's wise.

If keeping these stats then it should probably be in price range of Ordinatus Medrengard which is a similarly controversial beast (well protected war engine artillery). In comparison Ordinatus Minoris have less BP and range, but greater DC and shields plus fearless ability (and MW instead of disrupt of course).

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 Post subject: Re: 4K Fir Iolarion 4.2.6 vs Skitarri 2.1
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:27 am 
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Quote:
This seems to be common problem with some of these newer lists we've tried recently, overpowering of units when you look at comparable ones in the established approved lists... There was a design principle some years ago that you should aim to err on the side of overpointing rather than underpointing new lists and I think that's wise.


A few things I'll say at this juncture. Minorus without fearless are extremely fragile. Once broken (and they broke easy at 4bm and only RA5+ armor) they evaporate. With fearless at least they have a chance. We can revert that change if we have to because I don't think anything past 50-75 points is going to much change the CLP combo and makes the Apoc Launcher version entirely worthless. Lets see how it fares on the table before we judge too harshly. My experience with that unit would suggest it's not nearly as fearsome as it seems.

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 Post subject: Re: 4K Fir Iolarion 4.2.6 vs Skitarri 2.1
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:42 am 
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Vaaish wrote:
Minorus without fearless are extremely fragile. Once broken (and they broke easy at 4bm and only RA5+ armor) they evaporate. With fearless at least they have a chance.


Of course. But that is exactly what happens to other artillery of equivalent points so it is exactly what should happen given the points you have them at.
If you want them significantly (hugely) more resilient than other artillery that's fine, but they need to pay the points for that resilience, not get it for free or close to free.

Table testing is fine for tweaking, but when the discrepancy with already approved units is so marked that it's a no brainer choice that you'd take the new unit rather than the approved one, then table testing is a waste of playtesting time.

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 Post subject: Re: 4K Fir Iolarion 4.2.6 vs Skitarri 2.1
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:28 am 
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You can try the clp at 100 points, but 600 points seems a bit much. The quake + clp combo never really played out that strong on the table even back with indirect.

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 Post subject: Re: 4K Fir Iolarion 4.2.6 vs Skitarri 2.1
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:10 pm 
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At 600 points that is more like the price of an Ordinatus Merengard which seems more reasonable, esp given the fearless and likely use of the formation as a well protected BTS hiding at the back.
Formations should be something you have to think hard about taking compared to other choices, rather than autoincludes. And vs IG arty batteries it would be more of a choice as to what you'd prefer. Still clearly better than an IG arty company but even with their points reduction I think those remain overpointed compared to IG arty batteries.

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 Post subject: Re: 4K Fir Iolarion 4.2.6 vs Skitarri 2.1
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:35 am 
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I really don't think the twin quake clp is as strong as it looks on paper. I've run the combo with my AMTL on a reaver, the 90cm max does reign it in a lot. Minorus are also arguably softer targets than a titan, and IG artillery is well and truely out ranging you, by more than triple the distance..

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 Post subject: Re: 4K Fir Iolarion 4.2.6 vs Skitarri 2.1
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:57 am 
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fruitbat wrote:
I really don't think the twin quake clp is as strong as it looks on paper. I've run the combo with my AMTL on a reaver, the 90cm max does reign it in a lot. Minorus are also arguably softer targets than a titan, and IG artillery is well and truely out ranging you, by more than triple the distance..

Agree with you on the above statement...

I think the 50 points on the CLP is right place to start, since it was free to begin with...as always more testing is need with the combo and against different races and list builds....such as Aircraft heavy or been out shot by IG artillery....or using corner deployment....just my 2 cents worth.

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 Post subject: Re: 4K Fir Iolarion 4.2.6 vs Skitarri 2.1
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:04 am 
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PFE200 wrote:
I think the 50 points on the CLP is right place to start, since it was free to begin with....


No the right place to start is power and points comparison to existing approved and comparable units.

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 Post subject: Re: 4K Fir Iolarion 4.2.6 vs Skitarri 2.1
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:28 am 
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fruitbat wrote:
I really don't think the twin quake clp is as strong as it looks on paper. I've run the combo with my AMTL on a reaver, the 90cm max does reign it in a lot. Minorus are also arguably softer targets than a titan, and IG artillery is well and truely out ranging you, by more than triple the distance..


Reaver is 700 points with 2QC and CLP, has better armour and move, but fewer void shields. 600 points seems about right in comparison for Minorus which have exactly the same offensive capacity and only somewhat less defensive capacity, especially considering such units are likely hidden at the back.

With regard to range, IG bombards have same range (when using indirect fire and worse when direct).
Tables are only 6x4 so triple range is largely irrelevant for Basilisks and manticores. In fact you can probably move and bring Minorus/Reaver in range of enemy artillery AND shoot them in the same turn given the CLP lets you move and shoot without LOF (something you can't do with indirect which is another advantage for Minorus/Reaver). And counterbattery fire against minorus is facing 6 void shields, and instant kills from any hit in return.

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 Post subject: Re: 4K Fir Iolarion 4.2.6 vs Skitarri 2.1
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:04 am 
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600 sounds better to me too. 90cm double template macro is a massive denial area. 3 different WE sounds better getting 3 shields back in the end phase also. Fearless being a large factor.

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 Post subject: Re: 4K Fir Iolarion 4.2.6 vs Skitarri 2.1
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:07 am 
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Markconz wrote:
No the right place to start is power and points comparison to existing approved and comparable units.


It was right place to start in adding points to the free upgrade, that causing the issue by the looks..

But other people will have different experiences, my experiences tell me that depending on want list it face will give a different result..that's why I said play test with different builds etc... Just because i approch a problem from a different angle, does not mean..That I'm not comparing approved and comparable units to the issue along the way....

600 points may right, other many not see it that way...All we have done is up the cost of the CLP, in the end the right place to start to solving the issue...Doesn't means it resolve, but it a start....

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 Post subject: Re: 4K Fir Iolarion 4.2.6 vs Skitarri 2.1
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:17 am 
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Sorry, I'm on phone so quoting is a challenge..

I disagree on your comparison Mark, in effect it's actually less void shields before a potential save.. one of the minorus is going to be the closest target in the formation.

Of the batreps of yours I've seen, 4000 seems to be your regular points. Do you play 3000 much? It's all the toys at that level, 3k means some harder choices. I feel upping to 600 or more for the formation comes close to pricing it out of contention for a standard 3k tournament.

I agree Greg that more testing v different opponents is the go, hope to have the chance later in the year, but I will admit this combo's not high on my priority for builds.

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