AAR from a recent game against Onyx - apologies to Onyx for the tardiness in getting this done
Squats vs Iron Warriors
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| Squats foolish misstep against Iron Warriors! http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=24825 |
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| Author: | Frosthammer [ Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Squats foolish misstep against Iron Warriors! |
AAR from a recent game against Onyx - apologies to Onyx for the tardiness in getting this done Squats vs Iron Warriors |
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| Author: | Moscovian [ Sun Mar 17, 2013 7:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Squats foolish misstep against Iron Warriors! |
Looks like you got chewed up! So, what were your thoughts on the list? And what did Onyx think? |
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| Author: | Frosthammer [ Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Squats foolish misstep against Iron Warriors! |
generally the list worked ok, once i actually got over my initial preconceptions on this list...i had used the Demiurg list until that game, so to me the Thurgrimm list had some issues, mainly the lack of scout...prevalence of teleporters in our local scene means scouts are rather important...and i will put my hand up that i played very badly and made some rookie mistakes....also my dice failed me, especially for activations...i reckon i failed more than 50% of the activation rolls, even with the supreme commander reroll... overall we thought most of the units were fine...we chatted about the army post game and Onyx helped balance my views in some cases - good having someone from the rules committee local to bounce ideas off... the ones we thought could do with changes are as follows: - Mole Mortar: change range to 45cm & change Disrupt to Ignore Cover & 1BP per unit in the formation. general feeling is that Disrupt makes them too powerful and switching to Ignore Cover alleviates some of those concerns...also the counting half the formation for BP is just annoying from a gameplay point of view and not necessary if u remove Disrupt... - Goliath: up to 4BP, DC3, limit formation to 1-2 guns, also the part of the Critical Hit that gives a BM to each unit within 15cm was something we didnt like...5+ save with no reinforced armour seems reasonable to me (i talked Onyx around from them having reinforced armour) - robots to AV - see LV as making them too fragile - Strategy Rating increase to 3+ other feedback: - Ancient Wisdom is a very nice ability, makes the Living Ancestor a must have unit for the army, costing is fine - bikers were fine with the Guildmaster, still unsure about the LV issue - requires more playtesting... - Autonom rule seemed to work well but really need to playtest the list some more after Easter (when life is back to normal) to get a better feel for the list... |
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| Author: | Moscovian [ Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Squats foolish misstep against Iron Warriors! |
Goliath - based on the discussion on the 1.32 thread, there is no way I can justify making them more powerful. They are arguably the best artillery piece in the game; at least in the top three. Dropping 6BP Ignore cover per turn for 300 points at 240cm range underpowered? Robots - I'm convinced. I got a hold of some of the old metal Colossus robots (from which the plastic ones were designed) and they are definitely Dread size. In addition, the fluff says many of the parts from robots were stripped to repair Dreads, so clearly they are in the same size range. AV they shall be, but now I need to dig into cost. They seem overpriced right now, but what the AV status does to them I don't know. SR 3+ - I'm just not seeing it. Squats are human. They're shorter, they're hairier, but they're effectively human. Much of their equipment is shared with humanity. I don't see a need to give them a leg up on their Strategy roll. Mole Mortars - this befuddles me more than anything else. They are too powerful because of the disrupt, but you guys want to add to their range? Then change them to ignore cover to mitigate the increase in range? The formation can already garrison, which means that they can get range on an enemy's back field with some proper placement. As for the shots, there is no reason to get confused. The entire Imperial Guard army operates with this method of shooting (i.e. counting stands, divide by two). It seems most of these thoughts are based on a game in which the Squat player rolled terribly, and so there is a natural inclination to want to bump everything. I appreciate the feedback, as always. Give them another try, and this time perhaps switch out the robots for something steadier until we get their stats hammered out. I suspect your next game will go better. |
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| Author: | Onyx [ Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Squats foolish misstep against Iron Warriors! |
Good stuff mate. My favourite part: Quote: The Ravager advanced towards the Squat lines, although there was jeering from the Squat lines as it hid behind a building. A powerful war engine of destruction and death, cowering in cover like a gretchin wetting itself in fear!  The tactic of placing blast markers on as many Squat formations as possible worked very well (much better than it should have - dice are maddening sometimes). Iron within - Iron without! I agree with Mosc that your next game can only go better! Mole Mortars - I can live with the range and the BP but an explosive device that tunnels under the ground and appears at the enemy's feet is the very definition of Ignore Cover. I get the Disrupt option but Ignore Cover seems more appropriate. Of course this messes with the Goliath then... The critical on the Goliath is pretty harsh on an Initiative 2+ army. This game definitely felt different to our Demiurg games. The artillery in that list is scary! I would like to see the inclusion of a scout formation of some kind. |
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| Author: | Frosthammer [ Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Squats foolish misstep against Iron Warriors! |
Strategy Roll is not about equipment as i see it, its about command/control/communications & training/discipline...Squat may be short hairy humans, but their cultural evolution and methodology of war gives the impression they are better organised and have better discipline than ur average guard army...as for the technology thing i seem to remember that many a Squat technology was adapted by the imperium but Squat plasma tech was always considered superior... but i guess my view is coloured by my playing Demiurg only until now...will play more games and see how things go after more experience using the army and the formations within it...once i get another 10 games under the belt will be in a better place to give more reasoned, thought out feedback... with the robots being changed to AV and ur statement that they are overpriced as LV - perhaps no change to cost is required, or maybe add +50 pts to the formation cost... |
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| Author: | Moscovian [ Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Squats foolish misstep against Iron Warriors! |
I don't see ignore cover applying. I suppose removing the disrupt can be done, but this would reduce their price by a decent amount. I know what you mean about the SR. It takes some getting used to it. But so far it feels right. Expecially when you consider the rain of death you can pound an opponent with if you win the first roll. Imagine giving yourself an additional +1 to activate first. I see a LOT of eye rolls coming from the other side of the table. |
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| Author: | Simulated Knave [ Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Squats foolish misstep against Iron Warriors! |
They do tunnel underground and pop up underneath enemies, making the ground collapse. How would cover help against that? |
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| Author: | Tiny-Tim [ Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Squats foolish misstep against Iron Warriors! |
Thanks for the report. It seems that the Squats are suffering a lot of Chaos incursions at the moment as my main testing is against either Iron Warriors or Death Guard at the moment. My one main comment, except for unlucky on the dice rolls, is that when I played against an Ordinatus I made sure to place my Goliaths after the Ordiantus had been placed this allowed me to place the pieces at the corner of the battlefield and out of the Ordinatus range. Saying that though the extra BM from the Ordinatus is a killer. |
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| Author: | Frosthammer [ Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Squats foolish misstep against Iron Warriors! |
Tiny-Tim wrote: Thanks for the report. It seems that the Squats are suffering a lot of Chaos incursions at the moment as my main testing is against either Iron Warriors or Death Guard at the moment. My one main comment, except for unlucky on the dice rolls, is that when I played against an Ordinatus I made sure to place my Goliaths after the Ordiantus had been placed this allowed me to place the pieces at the corner of the battlefield and out of the Ordinatus range. Saying that though the extra BM from the Ordinatus is a killer. i think i said it before but i made some terrible mistakes in the game, especially the placement of the Goliaths...consider ur advice taken to heart next time i take on that pesky ordinatus 
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| Author: | jimmyzimms [ Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Squats foolish misstep against Iron Warriors! |
Simulated Knave wrote: They do tunnel underground and pop up underneath enemies, making the ground collapse. How would cover help against that? Agreed. They'd seem more IC as opposed to Disrupt to me. |
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| Author: | Moscovian [ Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Squats foolish misstep against Iron Warriors! |
Unless you're in a building, or on the roof of a building, in which case ignore cover makes absolutely no sense. |
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| Author: | Simulated Knave [ Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Squats foolish misstep against Iron Warriors! |
Disrupt doesn't make much sense in those circumstances, either (unless you argue the building collapses, but the same principle would seem to apply to Ignore Cover). |
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| Author: | Markconz [ Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Squats foolish misstep against Iron Warriors! |
Agreed with all the others who think ignore cover makes more sense for Mole Mortars. |
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| Author: | Moscovian [ Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Squats foolish misstep against Iron Warriors! |
Maybe the best thing to do is make them nothing then. I'll poke at the costs, or maybe add another 2 stands to make them a 4BP formation. |
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