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[Epic: Xenos] 3k Onachus v0.2 vs IG (NetEA) - 2010/12/01 http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=19790	Page 1 of 2

Author:	Dave [ Thu Dec 02, 2010 7:40 pm ]
Post subject:	[Epic: Xenos] 3k Onachus v0.2 vs IG (NetEA) - 2010/12/01
A test of the Trygon popcorn list, thoughts below. It was a 4th turn victory for the guard in points, 1850 to 700. Guard almost pulled out a 2-0 win but couldn't get T&H thanks to the sole remaining Trygon. Tyranid Code: 250 - Synapse Swarm 2 Gargoyles 225 - Synapse Swarm 1 Gargoyles 225 - Synapse Swarm 1 Gargoyles 200 - Synapse Swarm 200 - Synapse Swarm 200 - Synapse Swarm 200 - Synapse Swarm 200 - Synapse Swarm 200 - Synapse Swarm 200 - Synapse Swarm 100 - Trygon Swarm 100 - Trygon Swarm 100 - Trygon Swarm 100 - Trygon Swarm 100 - Trygon Swarm 100 - Trygon Swarm 100 - Trygon Swarm 100 - Trygon Swarm 100 - Trygon Swarm 3000/19 IG Code: 550 - Regimental HQ Hydra 250 - Infantry Company 250 - Infantry Company 250 - Infantry Company 250 - Infantry Company 150 - Rough Riders 150 - Rough Riders 250 - Manticores 250 - Manticores 200 - Deathstrike 150 - Thunderbolts 150 - Thunderbolts 150 - Thunderbolts 3000/13

Author:	Dave [ Thu Dec 02, 2010 7:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: [Epic: Xenos] 3k Onachus v0.2 vs IG (NetEA) - 2010/12/01
Start of Game Start of Game Swarm 3 doubles up and takes out a Rough Rider. Swarm 5 does the same and breaks them. The Manticores sustain on Tyrgon 6 and catchs the BTS there other template. A Warrior and 2 gaunts go down. The other Mantiorces to the same on Trygon 5 and take out another 2 gaunts. The BTS attempts to marshal but fails and breaks. Manfred the proxy Trygon catchs a Deathstrike in the face. Swarm 1 marches up. Swarm 6 doubles up to cover. The Tbolts straffe the BTS and kill the last Warrior, 2 gaunts are hacked down and only the Gargoyle remains. Swarm 10 marches up. Company 1 takes out a Warrior and 3 gaunts in Swarm 1. The Tbolts retain and break them. Swarm 2 replaces Swarm 1. Swarm 9 marches up. Swarm 4 doubles up. Company 2 sustains and takes out a Warrior. Swarm 7 doubles up. Trygon 6 marshalls. Company 4 attempts to double but fails and moves. Trygon 5 doubles up and takes out a Rough Rider. Trygon 4 doubles up. The HQ doubles and lays a BM on Trygon 4. Trygon 3 marches over and the Tbolts break Trygon 4 who heads back to the Blitz. Trygon 2 doubles up and lays a BM. The Rough Riders engage Trygon 6. It goes down from all the support. Trygon 1 marches up. Company 3 sustains and lays a BM on a Trygon.

Author:	Dave [ Thu Dec 02, 2010 7:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: [Epic: Xenos] 3k Onachus v0.2 vs IG (NetEA) - 2010/12/01
Turn 2 A Swarm advances and lays a BM on the HQ. The Trygon retains and engages. Two Chimera go down but the Trygon is wiped out. Deathstrike numero dos pops another bug. Company 1 attempts to retain and sustain, but fails and lays a BM on another Trygon. A swarm moves up into support range and lays a BM on Company 2. The Trygon tries a clipping assault. He goes down due to some bad saves and a Guardsman is lost. A manticore sustains and takes out two gaunts. The Rough Riders attempt to retain and screen Company 1 but fail and regroup. A Swarm advances and takes out a Guardsman. Another Swarm retains and engages. Four Guardsmen go down but they hold firm. Another Manticore sustains and takes out two Guants. A Trygon advances and lays a BM. Swarm 10 engages and takes two out. All but the Commissar break. The Tbolts straffe the Trygon and break it, taking out a DC. Swarm 9 piles into the HQ. They are wiped out to the bug but 3 Chimera go down. Another Swarm retains and piles in again. The HQ finally breaks. A Tbolt attempts to straffe but fails. A swarm attempts to engage but fails and regroups. The last unit of Tbolts hack down the Trygon on the Blitz. Company 3 advances on the Swarm in the open and takes out a Warrior. The Gargoyle attempts to move but fails and breaks. Company 2 advances and takes out another Warrior in the open. Company attempt to retain and fails, they fire and lay a BM on the Swarm in the open.

Author:	Dave [ Thu Dec 02, 2010 7:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: [Epic: Xenos] 3k Onachus v0.2 vs IG (NetEA) - 2010/12/01
Turn 3 Turn 3 The Trygons appear. Manticores break the Trygon and lay a BM on the Swarm in the open with the other template. The Rough Riders retain and engage. They die horribly. A swarm piles into Copmany 1. The Guardsmen stand firm, without a loss, and wipe out the bugs. A trygon retains and engages Company 2. The Trygon lives but dies from support after killing 3 Guardsmen. The Manticores catch the broken Trygon and Gargoyle under the same barrage and hackdown them both. Guard gets BTS. A swarm attempts to double and fails, they move into cover. The HQ advance and take out a Warrior. A Swarm doubles and lays a BM on Compy 3. A Trygon retains and engages. It goes to a second round. And all the Guardsmen bar two die horribly. The Tbolts straffe the swarm in the open and break them. The Guardsmen retain and sustain, laying a BM on the bugs in cover. Going for broke, the synapseless broods engage Company 2. The Guardsmen take no losses and wipe the bugs out. A swarm marches back to deny Blitz. Tbolts straffe the bugs on the T&H and lay a BM. A swarm attempts to marshal but fails and moves into cover. Tbolts straffe the bugs again and lay a BM. A Swarm falls back for DTF. Company 4 doubles and takes out a Warrior. Company 2 sustais on the Swarm and lays a BM. The Deathstrikes rush the bugs!

Author:	Dave [ Thu Dec 02, 2010 7:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: [Epic: Xenos] 3k Onachus v0.2 vs IG (NetEA) - 2010/12/01
Turn 4 Turn 4 A swarm advances into support and lays a BM. The retain to engage fails though. Tbolts straffe the Blitz guard, laying a BM. A Swarm takes Blitz. Another group of Tbolts straffe the Blitz guard and break them. Another Swarm takes their place. The Manticores fail to shift them. A trygon denies a take and hold. Tbolts fail to activate. A Swarm marshals and stays put. Company 2 dashes for the Blitz! The Manticores fail to activate. The Deathstrikes double and manage to break the Bltiz guard, but they just string out to deny the Guard Blitz. Company 1 advances to try and shift the bugs on a T&H, they kill a Warrior. Company 3 grabs it with a double. Company 4 can't manage to break the Trygon though for T&H. End of Game

Author:	Dave [ Thu Dec 02, 2010 7:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: [Epic: Xenos] 3k Onachus v0.2 vs IG (NetEA) - 2010/12/01
Re: the Trygon popcorn, it was pretty much what I expected. Matt pointed out that they're not overly useful one-off and I thought the game demonstrated that pretty well. I think there's other more important things to test beyond this though so I'd rather just change the formation based on that thought and the concerns of others over high activation counts, rather than to keep trying something like this. I'll put out a 0.2.1 in a bit with a 200 point formation of two Trygons, with the options to add another and up to 9 Raveners.

Author:	Moscovian [ Thu Dec 02, 2010 7:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: [Epic: Xenos] 3k Onachus v0.2 vs IG (NetEA) - 2010/12/01
As with many popcorn lists, their usefulness tends to end where the board begins. Of course, how are we to know you weren't just holding back? You big fat liar!

Author:	Dave [ Thu Dec 02, 2010 8:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: [Epic: Xenos] 3k Onachus v0.2 vs IG (NetEA) - 2010/12/01
Don't go bringing your proclivities into this. I still have nightmares from Games Day 2009...

Author:	mattthemuppet [ Thu Dec 02, 2010 8:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: [Epic: Xenos] 3k Onachus v0.2 vs IG (NetEA) - 2010/12/01
that makes sense I think. I didn't get any sense of overpowering from the list, though the 3rd and 4th turns were kind of comical from the "IG breaks fm holding obj, another one takes it's place" shenanigans I guess that's part of the problem with such high activation count lists, it's like trying to wrestle an octopus. Another thing that popped out was the amount of shooting and no. of retains the nids did. I love the deathstrike missile shots btw, made me laugh

Author:	Moscovian [ Thu Dec 02, 2010 8:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: [Epic: Xenos] 3k Onachus v0.2 vs IG (NetEA) - 2010/12/01
It looked like the Nid was getting ready to punt the dang thing.

Author:	Dave [ Thu Dec 02, 2010 8:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: [Epic: Xenos] 3k Onachus v0.2 vs IG (NetEA) - 2010/12/01
It's actually holding it for a Heirodule so it can pull it away at the last second... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlzVDDSfeeA

Author:	Mephiston [ Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: [Epic: Xenos] 3k Onachus v0.2 vs IG (NetEA) - 2010/12/01
Can I ask if the guard list was something you would take to an open tournament or tailored somewhat for the game?

Author:	Dave [ Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: [Epic: Xenos] 3k Onachus v0.2 vs IG (NetEA) - 2010/12/01
It's hard not to tailor a list knowing what you'll be facing so in the end I picked something that I have used before and that has done well for me in the past rather than come up with a new list. I've used something very close to this on Vassal a couple of times so went with it. I haven't gotten too many games in as Guard since 2007 so I don't know about the whole tourney angle. I'd be willing to give this list a shot at NEAT. It certainly lacks mobility and plays very statically/defensively.

Author:	captPiett [ Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: [Epic: Xenos] 3k Onachus v0.2 vs IG (NetEA) - 2010/12/01
Don't lie Dave... you tailored the hell out of that IG list. "It's a conspiracy, my brothah... C-O-N-...spiracy!" "Swarm X receives a blast marker for their troubles" sums up this game nicely. I must say (as I told Dave during the game) that playing a list that I had no hand in creating was quite fun. Very liberating, for some reason. A good change from my self-induced-stroke/apoplexy style. Perhaps I should volunteer as a "popcorn list tester" as a wargame stress reliever method... That said, I did try my best to win this one. The biggest problem with this list that I saw was that the formations were just not that durable. That's pretty obvious with a bunch of 2DC 5+RA WEs, but the swarms were just too small as well. When I first saw E&C post this list, I was much more worried about it then than now because I thought the armor save for trygons was 4+RA. Changing the trygon swarm size as Dave just did is still a good move, IMO. Two things I think I would've done differently, but which I'm not sure would have changed a whole lot overall: 1) Started my BTS in cover. I tend to place my higher-value formations after the cheap stuff, and by the time I did that my other swarms were taking up the all scrub areas on my table edge. Dave had BTS virtually from turn 1, and just zapped the lonely little gargoyle to officially get it when he wanted. Perhaps a cover save would have made this harder. 2) Refrained from sending one of my tunnelers into the teeth of support fire hell. What might have changed the outcome: I think I would have tunneled more of the trygons, in hindsight. It would have diminished my activation count significantly, but that would have also meant that they wouldn't be shot at for 1-2 turns (depending on where they come up).

Author:	nealhunt [ Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: [Epic: Xenos] 3k Onachus v0.2 vs IG (NetEA) - 2010/12/01
Dave wrote: Re: the Trygon popcorn, it was pretty much what I expected. Matt pointed out that they're not overly useful one-off and I thought the game demonstrated that pretty well. I know this list was inspired by the Onachus discussion, but that is not a good popcorn list. Popcorn lists need numbers and decent durability but they must also have some flexibility of fire. That means speed and/or range. 30cm range/20cm move ain't it. Finally, they still need some of the "gotcha" tools and possibly a big hammer. Personally, if I were trying to popcorn this list, I'd drop several Trygon formations and add in a couple Biovore swarms and a Lictor swarm or two. As an example, Biovores garrisoned in those buildings would have been very hard to root out. With 60cm IDF would have had the range to prep assaults for a lot of the board and to force any IG that broke to move far away or risk hackdowns. Teleporting Lictors are excellent at forcing people to react, which is very useful for a popcorn list. For example, if the IG had to pull a couple infantry companies back to guard the Manticores and Deathstrikes against a Lictor threat, their line would have been far more permeable. This really isn't conclusive. == Edit: I thought about it some more. The IG list is virtually a popcorn list. It's 13 activations, all but 2 with ranged fire and most of them pretty tough. The slow formations have 45cm range and there are _6_ air/IDF formations that can put fire nearly anywhere on the board, giving it huge flexibility of firepower. The IG have a decent hammer with the HQ formation and the specialty tool of the Deathstrikes. With 13 activations, even at 19 for the Nids, that's within the workable 3:2 ratio. This really wasn't a popcorn test at all.

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