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Shadow Scorpions vs Black Legion 3000pts

 Post subject: Shadow Scorpions vs Black Legion 3000pts
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 12:31 am 
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Finally got around to using the Scions of Iron list for my Shadow Scorpions.

I'll post a full batrep with pics within a few days, I've just got back from the game.

Thoroughly enjoyable and very close. A chance to use Predators and Land Raiders competitively, where they are poor cousins in the standard Marine list.

My list was:

Thunderhawk Annihilator

Thunderhawk Annihilator

Tactical- x4. 1xRhino. 2xRazor- Twin heavy bolter. 4xPredator Destructor. 1xHunter. 1xChaplain. (BTS)

Tactical- x4 2xRhino. 2xPredator Annihilator. 1xRazor- Twin lascannon.
Tactical- x4 2xRhino. 2xPredator Annihilator. 1xRazor- Twin lascannon.

Tactical- x4 2xLand Raider. 1xSupreme Commander.
Tactical- x4 2xLand Raider.

Whirlwind- x4 1xHunter.


From memory the Black Legion list was:

Retinue- Daemon Prince (Supreme Commander). 2xOblits.

Deathwheels x2 (BTS)

Forlorn Hope- x4 2xRhino

Forlorn Hope- x4 Drop Pods

Retinue- Daemon Prince, Drop Pods

Spacecraft

Hell Talons- x2

Terminators- x4 1xOblits.

Raptors- x6 1xLord.





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 Post subject: Shadow Scorpions vs Black Legion 3000pts
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 11:02 am 
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The Black Legion List was:

Retinue- Daemon Prince (Supreme Commander). 2xOblits, Mark of Khrone

Deathwheels x2 (BTS)

Forlorn Hope- x4 2xRhino, Daemonic Pact, Mark Of Tzeentch

Forlorn Hope- x4 Drop Pods, Daemonic Pact, Mark of Khrone

Retinue- Daemon Prince, Daemonic Pact, Drop Pods, Mark Of Tzeentch

Devastation Class Cruiser

Hell Talons- x2

Terminators- x4 1xOblits, Daemonic Pact, Mark of Khrone

Raptors- x6 1xLord, Daemonic Pact, Mark Of Tzeentch

Daemon Pool: 10 Lesser Daemons.

Using the SG list.

Hena - liking the Scions list, there's a loyalist scum list I might just get around to one day :)


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 Post subject: Shadow Scorpions vs Black Legion 3000pts
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 6:09 pm 
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Thunderhawk Annihilator... You mean Thunderhawk CAS (close air support) by any chance?


Hehe, yeah, guess which one's shorter and catchier,  :tongue:

A note to say that the Crusader is a bit better overall to Land Raider and will be toned down in next revision.

Aye, I don't have any Crusader models (first hurdle being none exist), and I'm basically using what models I already have for my Codex list.

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 Post subject: Shadow Scorpions vs Black Legion 3000pts
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 9:09 pm 
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 Post subject: Shadow Scorpions vs Black Legion 3000pts
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 10:30 am 
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The large formation did take a fair amount of damage without really breaking too much of a sweat, even taking the Sustain fire from both wheels at closer than 30cm without too much inconvenience. In fairness I'm not sure how it would have stood against a Daemon-assisted engagement from the Terminators, but the fickle initiative roll wasn't with me so I didn't get the chance to find out :) . Pretty scary formation all in all, but then it is the BTS, and has probably (without looking at the list) cost a good amount of points. If anything it's good to see marines being able to build really tough formations without resorting to Titans.


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 Post subject: Shadow Scorpions vs Black Legion 3000pts
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 12:16 pm 
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As you noticed, the list had too much AT. I would suggest swapping some Annihilators to Destructors or (shock and horror) to Vindicators.


It has a lot of AT, but I'm not sure it's 'too much'. The Black Legion is a rarity in that it's basically all-infantry and a few War Engines. I can only think of Codex Marines that's similar.
Orks, Guard, Eldar will be bringing loads of vehicles.

Marines traditionally lack TK, MW and in general heavy AT fire, so it's a refreshing change to pack some in.

As an aside, I have 4 Annihilator and 4 Destructor models (2 blisters worth).

Also I do like to use both types of Thawk if I have two (eg. one CAS and one SB). SB helps as it has Ignore Cover bombs so it can hit targets in cover as well. However you could have used CAS to attack the infantry as well. It has 4*4+ and 2*5+ AP shots so when compared to the rest of the army, it has relatively nice amount of AP fire. Annihilators and Land Raiders could have then used their better shots against the Wheels.


I can grudgingly see the value of the SB Thunderhawk, but I think the CAS is worth a lot more. Dealing with enemy infantry is possible in Engagements, with other units, etc. Dealing with Titans, War Engines and heavy vehicle spam is often a weak point for Marines, so it's good to pack AT.

The Thunderhawks role as 'artillery', able to strike far off targets, means it's often going after Manticores, Whirlwinds, etc to protect my army. Rarely are such threats infantry, instead of vehicles.

I also forgot the 2 5+ Infantry shots when I did shoot up infantry, but since I concentrated on the Deathwheels, it didn't matter that much in this game.

I also had every intention of moving the Predator Annihilator formations and Land Raiders into a position to Sustain on the Deathwheels. As with all plans, the enemy got in the way. I needed those formations to claim objectives, they also recieved incoming damage, other threats where bigger, etc. The Thunderhawks, being unable to score and immune to most incoming fire where ideal for strafing the Deathwheels with impunity.

If there is normal vehicles or mixed/LV formations, then they are really good. CAS is capable pumping out 2*3+ and 6*4+ shots if it get's optimal target (eg both AP and AT shots are being fired). That is very, very good for aircraft which has 4+RA save (so it can fly into AA with relative impunity).


I agree it's a beast, but it also can't land- a huge advantage for a normal Thunderhawk, both in Air Assaults and claiming objectives.

I'd like some comments on the fully kitted out Tactical. Was it too big in size and hard to break? It seems to have steam-rolled it's way into Chaos.


It's up there in resilience with Reaver titans and IG Tank Companies, and it should be...it cost as much. It didn't steam-roller the Chaos, because 80% of the Chaos army was on the other side of the board. I played (and so did Darren) cautiously by swinging around the empty flank of the enemy. So all it faced was the Terminators- which it got the drop on and annihilated in an Engagement, then some firepower from the Deathwheels.

If the Terminators had been able to engage first with Daemon support? If more of the Chaos army had drop podded, or moved to attack it? I think it would have crumpled easier than a IG Tank Company for example.

What stats you used for Destructors, FF4+ or 5+?

FF4+, it's why I included them in the big BTS formation, as I expected said formation to be involved in Engagements and Supporting Fire.
I agree the Destructor needs FF 4+ (and so did the Land Raiders), to make the Annihilator less of a no-brainer.

Edit: I have a rules fault to admit. When the Land Raider formation made it's 'highway of death' march into the Chaos guns, you could trigger your Overwatch after any move and before I disembark. IN the event, the formation broke, fled and played no further part in the outcome, so the mistake didn't affect the game much (you even already got 1/2 VP's for it).





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 Post subject: Shadow Scorpions vs Black Legion 3000pts
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 7:44 pm 
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Because they were marching, which (correct me if I'm wrong these days, but it's pages 16 and 22 in the rule book) is taken as three separate moves, and the entire last 25cm was in the range of the guns of the Obliterator Retinue.
As it was we both at the time thought (and agreed) that I had to wait for them to disembark, it probably wouldn't have made any difference to the outcome, except in the unlikely event that I managed to wipe them out (which would have been easier) it would have come down even closer.
Thanks for that one Si, will have to bear it in mind for future mad 4th turn dashes under Overwatch


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 Post subject: Shadow Scorpions vs Black Legion 3000pts
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 8:43 pm 
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..Although reading the rule book (again page 16) it clearly says that disembarking happens after overwatch shots.

Checked the Errata and FAQ and couldn't find anything the overrules this.


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 Post subject: Shadow Scorpions vs Black Legion 3000pts
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 11:35 pm 
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Aye, I could have moved once, then moved twice disembarking out of LOS behind the forest, then walked forward in the third move.
It was literally cm's in claiming, I'm not sure walking would have reached.

This is actually quite important to clarify I think, as being able to Overwatch on a formation before it disembarks is pretty powerful, it makes doubling, etc very risky.

Possibly. However Scions isn't quite as good in assaults as regular marines. Mainly as Predators are more expensive units than marine infantry, so they are a bit less numerical. In general Scions do need to shoot to do more damage. That's one of the reasons for SB to exists, allowing more effective way of attacking infantry in cover. If you can get 4 units in template (enemy tends to be more packed in cover) you have 8*5+ shots of which half doesn't allow cover save.


The Predator has a Marine save, but can move twice as fast, pack 3x the weapons and are generally harder to hit (since AT is usually worse that AP for most weapons), so I can excuse the cost when embedded in a big formation.

The Thunderhawk SB has it's place, I'm sure, it's just not for me. I'm not scared of infantry skulking in cover, I have Whirlwinds, I have pretty decent Firefight troops, and worst case scenario I have the mobility to avoid them.
No, what scares me are Armoured Vehicles and War Machines, these generally have the mobility and pack the firepower to threaten me more. Here the Thunderhawk CAS shines.

One of the most effective air assault btw is Crusaders and Terminators in two T'hawk Transporters and of course the Landing Craft is as effective as in Codex list.

Perhaps, though if I plan to Air Assault with Marines, there's already a ready made list that does this best. I look to Scions for something different, a ground-based mechanised force.

Well it has worse saves as there is no RA units. However as it's Marines, it's a lot harder to suppress. So for example Disrupt weapons aren't that effective (not that Chaos has those much). So if it gets fired at there is the chance that it will wilt badly. However it can absorb few kills (especially if they are infantry) and still be effective. I suppose bying a single Razorback could help as it doesn't effect transport capability but allows one "shield unit" for Predators.


In short it justifies it's pts cost, it has up and downsides, even if those up and downsides are different to other BTS/big formations.

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 Post subject: Shadow Scorpions vs Black Legion 3000pts
PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 2:56 am 
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Just reading through the Scions list again. The Crusader does look a bit powerful.

If I'm reading right that's 3 5+ MW Firefights per Crusader? From one Multi-melta?

I'd have had it Macro Weapon, Extra Attack.

So 2x 5+ and 1x 5+ MW.

That said, it is quite short-ranged, and quite limited in shooting outside of Engagements, so it has it's downsides.


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