Tactical Command
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IG vs BL
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=13610		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:42 am ]
Post subject:  IG vs BL
So 1 and a 1/2 turns played against Gavins armoured Chaos.

The armies
Guard, test tourny army
500 SC (and bts)
50 Hydra
150 Hydra
150 Hydra
250 Infantry
100 Fire support
300 Vultures
200 Deathstrikes
250 Infantry
50 Ogryns
100 Sentinels (maybe switch out for roughriders?)
250 Warhound
250 Warhound
250 Warhound
150 Thunderbolts

Chaos
300 6 preds
AA thingy
300 6 preds
AA thingy
4 chosen
Flappy Demon prince
3 land raiders
Demonic
Retinue (tzentch)
DP
Demonic
Hell fighters
Hell fighters
2 decimators
Defilier
Decimator
defilier

(to be edited with gavins list!)

I think the defilers were with the decimators due to iterationitush (to do barrages). Also made mistake with 1/3 restriction.

Insert battle here.

Terrain - 4 city, 4 hills, 4 woods, set up with a central 'ridge' from corner to corner.

Objectives, the CSM's ended up with one on the far edge, and one near the blitz in the open about 1 1/2 foot in from the other edge, guard had half an arc of objectives from the centre of the table where the blitz was.

Set up.
Guard didn't pay attention tot he enemy being in land raiders and deployed to stop and teleport, bristling with hydra, with warhounds on the flanks.
CMS had most of their deployment facing the empy half of my table, with a retinue holding the far right and 2 decimators in the middle.

Turn one the marines did some stuff like the decimator running up and shooting a garrisoned reinforced guard formation before losing the big decimators formation to deathstrikes.
Other highlights included a warhound blowing up the other decimator that criticaled and blew up the defiler next to it.
The warhounds weathers most of the fire, one coming 1 point away from blowing up.
Then despite me failing 3 or 4 activations (vultures, sc, hydra etc) by the end of the turn there are 9 dead preds, no decimators left, two shot down fighters (3 6's to hit by moving hydra and poor jink saves) and I think a dead chosen.
Turn 2 was more of the same with the preds I think wiped out by vultures and a warhound and other general carnage. By this point I think I had lost 3 infantry stands and a hydra as well as 4 or 5 damage points off the warhounds so we stopped half way through.

My conclusion. Short range armour is the same in every list, you need deep strikers to occupy the enemy while you close. Here for me thats 2 formations of the heavily armed hell fighters and 2 ferals with a throw away formation of terminators. Would need a forlorn hope for a scout screen too.
Decimators only count in large amounts still. With them going into the 1/3 with ferals don't know how you can get that critical mass any more. Is the 0-2 restriction going? At least then can get 4 singles.

Any comments on the Guard list? Good for a tourny? Its a bit fragile. And has the sc/bts problem. Its a wonder weapon army more than a solid guard force.
Author:  Irondeath [ Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:07 pm ]
Post subject:  IG vs BL
I think the defilers were with the decimators due to iterationitush (to do barrages)

I hope they weren´t, as the Defilers have lost the BP attack and IDF in LI´s new playtest list.

If you weren´t using it, what stats did the Hell Blades (I presume you those were the "Hell fighters") use?
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Wed Sep 24, 2008 1:17 pm ]
Post subject:  IG vs BL
Correct. He added them, only to be told after a painful internet search on an iphone they don't have indirect/1bp.

Umm, I think we used the ones we found on said iphone so fighter, save 6+ 2 reapers range 15. made my SC petrified of them so a big strategy was getting rid of his activations so I could move up and not get shot up badly in case the hydra failed to retain and follow me.
Author:  Ginger [ Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:46 pm ]
Post subject:  IG vs BL
The 'experimental' BL list I put together was a version of IronDeath's 'armoured attack' list:-

Chosen(4) with DP, pact, and 3x LR . . . . 560
Preds(6) with Stalker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 350
Preds(6) with Stalker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 350
Decimator(1) with Defiler . . . . . . . . . . . 300
Decimator(2) with Defiler . . . . . . . . . . . 525
Retinue with DP, Pact . . . . . . . . . . . . .  350
HellBlades . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 200
HellBlades . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 200

Daemon Pool; LD(8) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 160

Setup
We had from memory six hills, three woods and three BuA scattered evenly on a 6'x4' table

Objectives :- Blitz placed off-centre causing the T&H to be placed generally in the other side of the table

Bl army was spread centrally, while IG army was "castled" around the Blitz, well protected against air assault by the seven Hydra units



Turn #1
Initiative BL
What to do? I did contemplate air-strike against the Deathstrikes and with 20-20 hindsight that might have been the best option, but the odds were that at least 2 out of 3 'Blades would have gone down in the attempt to put a BM on the DS. So instead I doubled Assault #1 forawrds getting 8x IG infantry under the template and killing 2x. Then the plan fell apart  :vo

IG deathstruck Assault#2, killing both Decimators outright, and retained with Warhound #1 that doubled forward to shoot at Assault #1, getting 2x hits one of which went critical, hitting (and killing) the Defiler. Two formations down in one go - ouch!

I tried to hurt this with Preds #1, stripping the shields, IG WH #2 proceeded to break them (leaving three). Chosen advanced and scored 2 hits on WH #1 breaking it, but it stayed put.

WH #3 marched across the table, so I tried to hurt that with Pred #2, which did actually manage to break it - only to have it gallop forward by my Blitz and broken Defiler. In return the Vultures picked on them and even though they failed their initiative, they were still able to shoot 6x Hellfires at the Preds breaking them (leaving three again).

HellBlades did not do much against either broken Warhound, and the Retinue also failed to hit the broken WH by the Blitz. Meanwhile the TBolts killed off 2 more tanks from Pred#1

End Phase :- BL Pred #1 stayed broken but Pred #2 and the lone Defiler from Assault#2 recovered, while WH #3 remained broken

Turn#2
Well Pred#2 tried to hurt the Warhounds again with little effect and was mangled for its pains, and with only two effective BL ground formations remaining against the IG horde it was evidently not going to be pretty, so we stopped there.
Author:  Ginger [ Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:01 pm ]
Post subject:  IG vs BL
Comments:-
This particular BL list didn't really have anything to stop the IG strategy and strengths of long-range fire followed by a general advance. It definitely needs something to take out Deathstrikes (and other Long-range stuff), even if that is a throw-away formation of Chosen that teleport in to shoot them.

The HellBlades pack a good punch, but might well have been better employed on CAP and waiting for better opportunities - but realistically these were not going to materialise because the Hydra stayed out of range. I remain unconviced on the HellTalons, though here if they had survived the AA, the Template weapons would have been devastating on the crowded IG 'Castle'

As TRC says, the BL evidently need to use "long range" abilities to occupy / neutralise enemy threats, without which their forces can be countered and destroyed piecemeal.
Author:  Tiny-Tim [ Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:17 pm ]
Post subject:  IG vs BL
Sounds like the defilers with Barrage would have been very useful in this battle.
Author:  Irondeath [ Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:51 pm ]
Post subject:  IG vs BL
BP and Indirect are not coming back IMO, given the list structure they were never too effective as proto-artillery anyway.

Options to affect Deathstrikes and the like are Terminators, Air and the Banelord. Of these, only the Banelord can be relied on, Terminators can be screened again and Air can be thwarted by flak, though I haven´t tried the Harbinger yet.

It´s price is quite steep, I´m not sure whether 500 points is worth it, but if it can strike those must-kill targets with sufficient reliablility, it would greatly help the list.
Author:  Ginger [ Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:52 pm ]
Post subject:  IG vs BL
Quote: (Tiny-tim @ 24 Sep. 2008, 16:17 )

Sounds like the defilers with Barrage would have been very useful in this battle.

Hmm, less sure on that, though I am starting to think that there is some imbalance between Decimator and DeathWheel and Feral.

Comparing the Decimator with the Death Wheel for the additional 50 points, you are getting:-
- Much more resilience (2 shields and an extra DC)
- better speed
- Better long range armament
Equally, compared with Ferals (which may themselves be undercosted) for the additional 75 points you get better speed and shields.

The comparison of Feral to Deathwheel is also interesting, and also IMHO not correct because the cheaper unit is also the better one.


In this battle Death Wheels fielded singly or paired together with two Defilers would have survived the Deathstrikes, and might well have hurt some of the IG formations - though they would obviously have died fairly quickly to the four other IG formations that could target them.
Author:  Irondeath [ Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:03 pm ]
Post subject:  IG vs BL
You can´t be seriuosly considering grouping Defilers and Deathwheels, the DWs really have to capitalize on that 35cm speed. I regard their shooting as mediocre, it is often a much better idea to pull a FF-Engage than to stand and Sustain.
Author:  Ginger [ Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:43 pm ]
Post subject:  IG vs BL
Quote: (Irondeath @ 24 Sep. 2008, 17:03 )

You can´t be seriuosly considering grouping Defilers and Deathwheels, the DWs really have to capitalize on that 35cm speed. I regard their shooting as mediocre, it is often a much better idea to pull a FF-Engage than to stand and Sustain.

You are right of course - I was only suggesting that the Defilers would provide additional survivability. Obviously they would hamper the overall formation
Author:  pixelgeek [ Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:08 am ]
Post subject:  IG vs BL
Quote: (Irondeath @ 24 Sep. 2008, 09:03 )

You can´t be seriuosly considering grouping Defilers and Deathwheels, the DWs really have to capitalize on that 35cm speed.

I'm with him. Sounds like a bad idea
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