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Another of Gavins Chaos battles!
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Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:32 am ]
Post subject:  Another of Gavins Chaos battles!
So we had another quick bash with Gavins latest theory verses whatever Imperial Guard I had in the bag.

Imperial Guard (minimal tourney changes list)
500 Supreme Commander (Sadly also the BTS)
50 Hydra
300 Vultures
300 Vultures
250 Infantry Company
100 Fire Support
150 Hydra Battery
100 Sentinels
500 Shadowswords
200 Deathstrikes
150 Roughriders
150 Thunderbolts
250 Marauder Bombers

I was trying for a 'light' Guard force, playing something (I hoped) vaguely akin to the Tau.

Chaos (with the changes on page 1)
300 Feral
300 Feral
180 Raptors
00 Lord
300 Bikes
00 Lord
275 Tzentch Retinue (back up for GD summoning)
00 Warlord
50 Chaos Champion
75 Oblit
75 Oblit
25 Daemonic Pact
125 Forlorn hope
25 Daemonic Pact
390 6 Chosen
50 Demon Prince
25 Daemonic Pact
390 6 Chosen (BTS) Khorne
50 Demon Prince
50 Chaos Champion
50 Icon Bearer
25 Daemonic Pact

100 Greater Demon
140 7 Demons
Author:  Erik M [ Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:39 am ]
Post subject:  Another of Gavins Chaos battles!
Just a quick note... Chris, your PM box is full.  :tongue:
Author:  Irondeath [ Wed Sep 03, 2008 11:43 am ]
Post subject:  Another of Gavins Chaos battles!
Teaser alert!

:vD
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Another of Gavins Chaos battles!
Well Gavin will provide the details. The end result was 2-1 to Chaos with both sides being mauled.

However I should also note I reckon I won on turn 1 due to Gavins luck :alien: . He charged the centre of my army (all 2500 points worth) with a teleported chosen formation with a bloodthirster turn 1, taking the overwatch shots of a Vulture squadron and a reinforced infantry company. This killed the bloodthirster stone dead :) (I only got 4 hits, but with Gavins dice rolls, this was enough) He still sucked half the SC formation with him and his critical however. This broke the chosen and it would have looked quite bad :)

As this would have been a let down after an hour of preparation we agreed we would start again and this time the formation made it in. Despite me having 50 or so dice to roll he still won (sadly in retrospect 50 dice is only on average about 4 Terminator kills, so a slight miscalculation by me). With all the scouts I had I shouldn't have been so gung ho and instead had a scout screen on everything and so delay his attack until turn 2, enough time for the vultures to neutralise the Ferals and air force to decimate the other infantry units. The other chosen went after the deathstrikes which left them out of position for the rest of the game and was something of the point of sticking the deathstrikes in such a lonely spot!

We had a lack of clear lines of fire for the Shadowswords and then for shame they were beaten in a firefight by a bunch of marines (the retinue) on turn two in a combat that lasted 3 rounds and caused I think two criticals on the tanks.

All in all I wasn't to fazed by the list afterwards, but the invulnerable saves by the end were getting really annoying ('oh and the invulnerable save - it was rarely passed but still galling that I didn't even get any with guard :) ). We both made the odd mistake and I think if I had 'turtled' instead of 'castled' realistically it would have been better to teleport turn two with the problems that entailed. The list was out of demons mid way through turn to I think.

If I did use such a list I would drop a DP maybe but definately two chosen from the smaller formation and get more demons and a third feral. Something like

300 Feral
300 Feral
300 Feral
300 Bikes
00 Lord
275 Tzentch Retinue (back up for GD summoning)
00 Warlord
50 Chaos Champion
75 Oblit
75 Oblit
25 Daemonic Pact
125 Forlorn hope
25 Daemonic Pact
260 4 Chosen
25 Daemonic Pact
390 6 Chosen (BTS) Khorne
50 Demon Prince
50 Chaos Champion
50 Icon Bearer
25 Daemonic Pact

100 Greater Demon
200 10 Demons

Though of course what it really needs is air cover so roll on the fighters! (With cheap enough fighters I would be tempted to have - for any list - 3 deathwheels and the fighters.)

But now of course its getting more and more like the 0-x list I would probably field if I were the warlord!
Author:  lord_bruno [ Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Another of Gavins Chaos battles!
What are the Sentinels good for???

I have a blister and I want to use them one day with my IG forces.

Cheers.
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Another of Gavins Chaos battles!
They have three uses.

Use 1 - Screen. Stops stuff like chosen attacking you as the scout ZoC is quite large and pushes them back, plus to get to the unit behind you have to go through them.

Use 2 - Laying the odd blastmarker whilst being a cheap activation (handy to have if you are a ranged Guard army that wants targets to move into range). If they survive they can even hold objectives.

Use 3 - Speedbumps. Move them in front of an enemy, especiually one that wants to assault or sustain, put them in your ZoC and mess up their plans.
Author:  Ginger [ Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:20 am ]
Post subject:  Another of Gavins Chaos battles!
So I fielded the following BL:

Chosen (6)    with DP, CC, Icon, Pact (BTS)
Chosen (6)    with DP, pact
Retinue         with CC, Icon, Pact, 2x Oblit
Folorn Hope  with pact
Feral
Feral
Raptors (4)
Bikes

After we had roughed out my list, TRC fielded the following IG

HQ Battalion with Hydra
Infantry company with fire support
Vultures
Vultures
Hydra battery
Sentinels
Shadowsword company
Deathstrikes
Rough riders
Thunderbolts
Marauders

So 8:11 activations, and the BL is a little more mobile and shooty.

Terrain & Objectives
As before, we had 4x hills, 4x woods, 4x Towns scattered pretty evenly, though there was a sizeable patch of open terrain in the Eastern- central part. Ig set up on the Northern edge, BL on the Southern. One of the criticisms has been the lack of mobility. To test a theory / prove a point, the IG blitz was set up centrally, with the IG T&H objectives on either table edge, while the BL Blitz was set up off-centre, 2' from the Western edge, with the BL T&H objectives being set up on the line between the IG Blitz and Western T&H. This places the two BL T&H objectives 50cms and 80cms from the IG Blitz, and 60cms from the Western IG T&H.

Garrisoning and setup
BL garrison off the Western IG objective and into a wood some 30 cms from the nearest BL T&H, and the Forlorn Hope garrison around the BL Blitz.

IG garrison Vultures#1 East of the blitz providing a pocket for the Shadowswords.

BL set up the Ferals either side of the Raptors behind the scout screen, with the bike 2' from the eastern edge ready to cover the Eastern T&H.

IG set up opposite the main BL thrust in the Eastern half of their deployment zone with the shadowswords (in the scout pocket) east of the HQ company in the open, and the Infantry company west of the HQ in the town immediately south of their Blitz and the sentinels and Hydras in the rear. The Deathstrikes and Vultures#2 were hidden away behind some hills on the Western end of the deployment zone.

Turn #1
Teleports:-
Well, we did discuss this and agreed it was probably suicidal, however to prove the point, the 'big' chosen#1 arrived in a narrow zone 15 cms south of the IG HQ, while the 'small' chosen#2 hunted the Deathstrikes. Both suffered 2x BMs.

Strategy roll BL (as expected)
Starting with the 'big' chosen the Daemons were summoned scoring '11' !! So the Khorne greater daemon and 4x Khorne lesser daemons sprang forwards, barging the opposition asside, pursued by the DP and 5x chosen (keeping the Icon bearer and Champ in the centre). Vulture#1 OW intervened scoring 4x AP and 5x AT hits killing 1x Chosen - and then the Chaos gods pulled a dirty trick with my dice as 4x AT hits struck home on the Greater Daemon! We then worked out that something like 5x IG units and 3x BL units would be removed into the void, and the game would have been a bit lame - so we 'assumed' that average stats reigned assigning 1x hit to the beast; and having spitted the commisar, Chosen#1 went into the roll off '8' up despite losing 2 Daemons and another Chosen, and anahilated the remains of the IG HQ regrouping where they were. The 'small' chosen#2 then assaulted and wiped out the Deathstrikes for no loss, consolidating slightly westwards towards the IG Blitz (about 60cms away).

In retaliation during the rest of the turn, Chosen#1 were subjected to the attentions of the sentinels, the Hydra battery and the Shadowswords (who also advanced 15 cms), losing the Greater Daemon (who did not suck anything else away this time) and the remaining daemons. Breaking southwards back to the centre of the battlefield the Chosen and Daemon Prince tried to reach their supporting Retinue, but the IG infantry company scored four more hits (the Chaos gods played with my dice again!), and the Daemon Prince and another chosen died wiping out the remainder of the formation :sad: Still, it had taken on over half the IG army single-handed laying BMs on all the formations, so the result was not entirely unexpected.

In summary, the rest of the turn saw the IG TBolts fail to activate, the Marauders strip the shields off Feral#1 while killing a nearby scout (the FH then broke into some nearby woods protecting the Blitz), the rough Riders advance towards the centre of the battlefield and the second vultures advance on the Eastern IG T&H breaking Feral#2 (which advanced into buildings on the table centre).

On the BL side, the Retinue advanced to the edge of the wood, taking control of the nearest IG T&H, the Raptors advanced into the buildings in support of the broken Feral and the nearby Retinue, while Feral#1 failed to marshal rallying instead.

End of turn saw all BL rally, while many of the IG did not, retaining the BMs inflicted by the two assaults.

Turn#2
Initiative BL
We played cat-and-mouse with the Shadowswords. The Retinue were in a position to assault them, but for the intervening Rough Riders. So the Raptors launch an assault on the RR breaking them (the Commisar running forwads to the Western IG T&H), but lose two units so break back to the buildings. In response the IG Sentinels double forwards to resume the screen (laying a BM on the Retinue in the process). These in turn are shot and broken by Feral#1, which advanced behind a hill, hiding from the Shadowswords. Retaining, the Retinue summon 2 Daemons and assault the Shadowswords and the assault is dragged out over three rounds resulting in the destruction of all three shadowswords at the cost of the daemons, all the Retinue 'characters' and one Obliterator (the remainder breaking back to the wood).

Elsewhere, Chosen#2 double towards the IG infantry company shooting and killing several infantry units, and the return fire is totally ineffectual. Feral#2 also sustains on the IG infantry pilling up more casualties and BMs, and is in turn targetted by the IG airforce losing a second DC. Vulture#1 advances to contest both BL T&H objectives while the Hydras sulk in the IG rear, and the BL Bikes assault Vultures#2 winning the assault but becoming broken in the process as the Chaos gods interfere again!!

End of turn
BL Bikes and Feral#2 fail to rally, as do many og the IG formations due to the proximity of the BL.

Turn #3
Initiative rolls 1-1 so BL again

The BL tighten their grip on the centre of the table, with the Raptors assaulting and breaking Vulture#1 (being broken in the process), and Feral#1 advancing to contest the second BL T&H while shooting and breaking the IG infantry. In return, the IG airforce and Hydras fire on Chosen#2 killing two and breaking them, while the lone unit from Vulture#2 fires on the broken bikes wiping them out.

Result
BL 2:1 (Takeand Hold + BTS ; BTS)
Author:  Ginger [ Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:27 am ]
Post subject:  Another of Gavins Chaos battles!
Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 03 Sep. 2008, 20:18 )

They have three uses.

Use 1 - Screen. Stops stuff like chosen attacking you as the scout ZoC is quite large and pushes them back, plus to get to the unit behind you have to go through them.

Use 2 - Laying the odd blastmarker whilst being a cheap activation (handy to have if you are a ranged Guard army that wants targets to move into range). If they survive they can even hold objectives.

Use 3 - Speedbumps. Move them in front of an enemy, especiually one that wants to assault or sustain, put them in your ZoC and mess up their plans.

- and you get to see all uses in the battle :smile:

Scouts are really usefull at the start of the game, screening valuable formations from teleport and air assaults, and for 'channeling' the enemy effort (cos you don't want to waste a big formation attacking them). Later in the game, they can be used to contest objectives. They do need to be used cautiously because they are relatively weak - so are best put in built-up areas - but can be very potent if they are in the right place at the right time. Eldar Rangers are especially good with 'Sniper' and deadly if they are able to sustain in a cross-fire situation.
Author:  pixelgeek [ Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:29 am ]
Post subject:  Another of Gavins Chaos battles!
What were the Sentinels set up to screen?
Author:  Ginger [ Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:55 am ]
Post subject:  Another of Gavins Chaos battles!
Quote: (pixelgeek @ 04 Sep. 2008, 01:29 )

What were the Sentinels set up to screen?

They were not set up to screen initially (Vultures#1 were), but they did advance to 'screen' the Shadowswords while laying a BM on the nearby BL Retinue. This forced the BL to use Feral#1 in a risky activation to remove the screen that could well have allowed the Shadowswords to kill it.
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:49 am ]
Post subject:  Another of Gavins Chaos battles!
Actually Ginger they screened the rear of the shadowswords who were on a crest of a hill!

The marauders failed to activate turn two I believe (teach me for not just getting some manticores).

Oh and I was so secure in my long range vultures I moved to the wrong spot and ended up having to shoot the untouched feral turn 1, not the one that was lacking shields.
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:03 am ]
Post subject:  Another of Gavins Chaos battles!
Quote: (Ginger @ 04 Sep. 2008, 01:20 )

We then worked out that something like 5x IG units and 3x BL units would be removed into the void

It seems we made a slight mistake there, the text from the critical from the most recent download is

Any summoned daemonic units within 5cms will be dragged back into the warp with the greater daemon and destroyed on a roll of 6
Author:  Irondeath [ Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Another of Gavins Chaos battles!
Thanks for the report.

I would add that it seems you had an exciting, balanced game but I may be mistaken.  :;):
Author:  Ginger [ Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Another of Gavins Chaos battles!
Quote: (Irondeath @ 04 Sep. 2008, 13:03 )

Thanks for the report.

I would add that it seems you had an exciting, balanced game but I may be mistaken.  :;):

Well, I would tend to agree that this game was exciting and not totally unbalanced. But you should also note that, while we were in 'testing' mode, I won both this and the last game reasonably easily using the BL. You should also note that I have failed to get into the top '6' of any of the UK tournaments this year including Britcon - where there were only 10 players.

So I would start to get concerned if, despite my lack of skill and appauling luck with the dice, I continue to trounce TRC (and others) using the BL.  

- - - and the other UK competitors may get worried if I start fielding the BL for real - -  :p
Author:  Irondeath [ Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Another of Gavins Chaos battles!
Side note, were there any daemons left in the pool to deduct when BL rolled a "1" for initiative in Turn 3?
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