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Dark Eldar vs Minervans 4000pts

 Post subject: Dark Eldar vs Minervans 4000pts
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:27 pm 
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Finally managed to arrange a rematch between my Dark Eldar and the dread Minervan tank legion. This time at 4000pts.

I also wanted to try out a few ideas and formations that I hadn't used much before (or much) - among them;

Mandrakes
Full size Ravagar Flotillas
Teleporting on the first turn

and

Asdrubael Vect - a project I've been trying to work out for a while and finally finished in time for the game. Ruleswise he was simply an Archon on a Ravager with nothing special (which does make his macro weapon attack a bit... rubbish, but never mind)

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b152/ ... 208016.jpg

As the forces deployed I had ready to field -

Flotilla 1 - Vect, 6 ravagers (total), Vessel of Pain
Flotilla 2 - 6 ravagers (total)
Syndicate - dracon (finding these very useful so far)
Wych cult
Scourges
Mandrakes
Tormentor
2 Heavy barges
Ravens
Razorwings
6 strong reavers
Talos

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b152/ ... 208015.jpg

- a fairly balanced force I thought, but with a definite lance element.

Against me were -
3 Leman russ companies (2x 10 strong, 1x 6 strong) including a smattering of thunderers.
6 thunderers (dedicated formation)
2x 3 superheavies (1 baneblade, 2 stormswords and 3 shadowswords between them)
2x 3 bombards with attendant Hydras
Vultures (4 strong)
2 Deathstrike missiles with attendant hydra

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b152/ ... 208018.jpg

I was pleased to see i had more activations, but the sheer amount of reinforced armour was intimidating to say the least - added to that, there was not an infantrymen in sight, virtually leaving half my firepower useless.

Turn 1 went to the Dark Eldar - who had teleported in both the drakes and the scourges to try and get an early kill. The Scourges did a good job of sniping a bombard unit, killing 2 and breaking the unit which fled to safety.

The drakes were less fortunate, with 3 options - either to stand and weather the storm of firepower, assault a potentially distant bombard formation and risk the unholy support fire of a leman russ company, or attack the Vultures. They opted for the gunships and promptly failed to hit any of them (I rolled 4 5s!!!). Losing one in return they broke and were wiped out by blast markers.

The guard responded gently, a long range bombardment from the guardsmen failing to do more than kill a single reaver jetbike. The Dark Eldar continued to try and snipe at the flanks, the Razorwings causing a spectacular strike as one of their phantom lances obliterated a stormsword.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b152/ ... 208019.jpg

The Minervans responded ferociously, striking at long range against the heavy barges who were barely visible. The sheer amount of firepower left one in tatters and almost broke the formation. For their part the heavy barges finished the job, failing their activation and falling back. The guard followed this success by advancing steadily, pounding the scourges and killing three of them, the rest fleeing for their lives.

The Tormentor doubled, but failed to hit anything, arriving back in time to watch a deathstrike obliterate one of the vessels of pain. The talos failed their activation roll as well, and the guard continued to advance steadily. The Syndicate moved into place ready to order the charge on the next turn as the guard ran out of activations, keeping close to the reavers ready to bring them into the fight on the order of the dracon.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b152/ ... 208017.jpg

Vect too prepared for the next turn, doubling both the Flotillas towards the foe and snapping shots at the 2 leman russ companies that waited for them on the Minervan right flank. Between the Ravagers and the ravens only three tanks were felled, but blast markers were placed and the assaults were ready.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b152/ ... 208020.jpg

As the turn closed most of the Minervan forces rallied. Frustratingly the only Eldar formation that managed this same feat was the lone surviving scourge. With the forces faced against one another, the battle rested on the next turn.



Turn 2 -

Unfortunately the plan went pear shaped when the Minervans won the initiative.

Left hideously exposed, Vect's formation was annihilated by the Minervan command company, leaving the Dark eldar flank in tatters. Worse yet, the second full strength tank company on the Minervan left then proceeded to obliterate the Dracon and her syndicate, leaving both horns of the Dark Eldar pincer shattered and bereft of their commanders.

With disaster looming, the remaining flotilla pulled away, striking at the smaller russ company and felling another tank. The guard were barely scratched by the attack and swiftly responded, the leman russ felling three of the ravagers and sending them fleeing to safety.

The guard then followed by launching the remaining deathstrike at the Tormentor, smashing its shadowfields and shaving off a DC. All eyes turned to the titan as it tried to rescue the situation on the Minervan right, but obviously the deathstrike had stunned it and it failed its activation roll.

The guard advanced cautiously, wary of potential counter attack, but they needn't have concerned themselves as only the wyches posed any significant threat. In a desperate attempt to win back at least the left flank the reavers attacked, but merely bounced off the leman russ there, unable to do more than knock out a single tank, losing four in return, the rest scattering as they fled.

The remaining wychs readied for the next turn, all too aware that the guard were still at nearly full strength whilst the Dark Eldar force lay in broken tatters. Unfortunately they attracted the attention of the vultures who pounced upon them with hellstrike missiles, smashing one of the raiders and its cargo and breaking the rest.

As the turn ended, only the Vessels of pain managed to rally, leaving the dark eldar in a very poor position.

Turn 3 -
The Dark eldar again lost the initiative, the Minervans driving their thunderers deep into the battle front and striking at the talos near them. The constructs suffered little as a result, losing only one of the wyrd machines, but the Heavy barges struck back with terrible ferocity at the impetuous guardsmen, leaving only a single thunderer alive.

The vultures responded, twisting about the ruinous city to bring about a final volley of hellstrikes against the Tormentor. The titan shuddered under the impacts, left on a single hit point. Preparing to attack the titan again failed its activation roll, leaving the guard virtually free to claim objectives. As the dust settled, the Minervans had 2 objectives to none, but clearly there was no way the Dark Eldar could hope to harm them now.

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 Post subject: Dark Eldar vs Minervans 4000pts
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:35 pm 
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Onward Minerva!!! :D


Which version of the Demolisher gun did you use?

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 Post subject: Dark Eldar vs Minervans 4000pts
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:07 am 
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Hmm, i didnt know that you could get single Hydras for support formations... Nice report btw! :)


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 Post subject: Dark Eldar vs Minervans 4000pts
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:14 am 
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Hmm, i didnt know that you could get single Hydras for support formations.


2x 3 bombards with attendant Hydras
2 Deathstrike missiles with attendant hydra

You can't do that actually; Upgrades can only be applied to Companies, not Support Formations.

However it's my fault for not making that explicit (Only implicit).





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 Post subject: Dark Eldar vs Minervans 4000pts
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:29 am 
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Ill pass that message on to my opponent :)

Demolisher guns were MW 4+ - dont know if they were ignore cover or not (it never came up)

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 Post subject: Dark Eldar vs Minervans 4000pts
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:10 pm 
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Sounds like you need new dice.

Did you pass any activation?

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 Post subject: Dark Eldar vs Minervans 4000pts
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:09 pm 
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Dark Eldar are cursed - didn't you read the fluff?  Don't expect good dice EVER. :)

Seriously, the game results sound like a mixture of issues.  Dark Eldar being very difficult to play, Minervans being IMO overpowered somewhat, and bad dice.

Developing a crossfire should help you enormously against reinforced armor targets; Russ and SHTs will take a 33% reduction in armor saves and if you make a kill you can lay that extra BM (they add up).  A couple cheap Kabals or Cults in Raiders marching up to your enemy should do the trick - 105cm is a big march.  Retain and grab the crossfire.  If you feel like putting out some Hellions they can not only help others claim a crossfire but push their scout ZOC into your enemy's space, forcing him to move or assault.  I'll be giving this a whirl next Friday in fact. :D

Another thought I had was to double up Barges of Pleasure for a durable BTS.  6 DC and 4 shadowfields so they get a -1 cover modifier for as long as they last, plus 8 infantry that will be well protected (for the first volley of shots at least).  It can lay out 4BP disrupt (two templates), AT5+ x 4 and AP5+ x 2, not to mention carrying a load of Warriors that could lay out another 6 to 8 AP5+ at close range.

While the AP won't help much against Minervans, placing a Ravager upgrade in your infantry formations is a cheap effective way to increase your lance weaponry that won't slow them down or limit your Wraithgate deployment.

Of course all this could be worthless - I need to try it myself.  But with Raiders on the verge of complete and a new gaming buddy local to me I'll be getting a lot more game time in.

While I know the list should be able to be played in any configuration, there are certain things I don't think I would ever go without...
1. A Wraithgate.  Talos formations can use them as can Ravager Flotillas and anything with a Raider.  This is a quick way to bring the fight to the enemy.

2. A Kashnarak.  Much like the Avatar, the threat of the unit is more vauable than the unit itself.  Careful placement of your Wraithgate means you will force your opponent to move around it or face the consequences.  Better than the Eldar, a Kashnarak will highly discourage your opponent from trying to blockade the Wraithgate.  

There are some other things that I think the DE may need in the future but they have gone through a lot of changes in a short time and I think it is good to let a wide range of playtesting occur before any further changes are made.

Questions: did the Baneblade MW hits have a large impact?  Was it the firepower the Minervans put out?  The fact that DE have a lot of light vehicles?  Or lousy armor saves?  Or all of the above?

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 Post subject: Dark Eldar vs Minervans 4000pts
PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:42 am 
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Certainly, in retrospect, setting up crossfires would have helped ENORMOUSLY, and i even had perfect units for the job in the form of Reaver jetbikes (120cm skimmer march and then support assaults? Yes please) so its my own fault really in many respects.

I can blame the dice for shoddy activation rolls but to be honest, I don't like blaming dice rolls when its probably my tactics at fault. Having said that it would have been nice to not have half my phantom lance equipped formations stand around like lemons at critical moments....

I was looking at a variant army list that I was considering taking for the battle that had another titan in place of the aircraft and lots of cheap syndicates with ravagers. I think I probably should have gone with that one...

Wraithgate would have been very useful - and seems a must with Talos formations. I have used the Kashnarak against tank heavy lists before, and so far its record is 2 tanks before being annihilated by support fire/firefight.

My opponent bunches his units up a lot, making it difficult to isolate specific units for destruction, but I think the real nail in my coffin was the leman russ companies. Against light vehicles that is a HIDEOUS amount of firepower that they can throw back at me.

Questions: did the Baneblade MW hits have a large impact?  Was it the firepower the Minervans put out?  The fact that DE have a lot of light vehicles?  Or lousy armor saves?  Or all of the above?


1: baneblade never actually shot its MW gun! It was out of range for it!
2: Horrific. Leman russ have won first place on my hit list.
3: Yes that didnt help, but only mattered against the Russ, but its simply a characteristic of the DE.
4: Armour saves for the DE are fine.
5: Minervans are nasty.

What really scuppered me i think was range. Whilst I was insanely faster than the Minervans there was just no escaping them! Virtually everything in their army had around 2-3 times my average weapons range!

Just a few more 45cm guns would have been nice!

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 Post subject: Dark Eldar vs Minervans 4000pts
PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:14 pm 
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Range seems to be a problem for the DE as their staple units just don't have it and the fluff doesn't support changing their ranges.  I've done my best to make other adjustments like armor to 4+ (to account for speed, maneuverability) and cost (raiders are free) but I think any range adjustments will have to take place on the Barges and Vessels if I make them at all.

As for Leman Russes... Well, they are a pain on the Steel Legion as well.  I really think the discount for them in the Minervan list was unnecessary.  E&C could keep the 65 points each and still manage a very good list, not to mention helping balance the Tank Platoons which offer a lot of flexibility for a discount.  Once your opponent gets a hold of that little fact there is no stopping the Minervan list.

It may not seem like the 5 point discount is a big deal until you realize every tank on the list is built around that discounted price.  While I am relatively sure E&C won't change it I'll put my money down that the playtesting over the next few months will easily show that as a problem.

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 Post subject: Dark Eldar vs Minervans 4000pts
PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:22 pm 
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My opponent kept mentioning that discount as well, I must admit it doesnt sound a lot on the face of it, but as both you and he have said, it adds up quickly.

Next time I'll try and make better use of crossfire, hopefully that'll help swing things back in the DE's favour :)

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 Post subject: Dark Eldar vs Minervans 4000pts
PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:32 pm 
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While I am relatively sure E&C won't change it I'll put my money down that the playtesting over the next few months will easily show that as a problem.


I am considering other pricing structures.

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 Post subject: Dark Eldar vs Minervans 4000pts
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 1:14 am 
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As 'the opponent' I have to thank Gareth for a fun game with plenty of humour and good grace, not to mention Melinda and her assets! :D

Thanks for the correction about the Hydras I won't make that mistake again.

I respect the crossfire rule having had Gareth use it on me previously, however in this particular game it would have been very risky. I deployed close to the back line and deliberately bunched knowing I was unlikely to face mass barrages. My weaker left flank had the vultures arranged through it to take advantage of their 10cm ZoC and to reduce the risk of teleport from behind which would have worked just as well for preventing crossfire.

Gareth was unfortunate with his initiative rolling and it certainly cost him the 2nd turn.

In terms of effectiveness the SHT companies, and the artillery were average with neither landing particulary decisive blows, more than anything the SHT were flyer magnets!!
The vultures were as versatile and dynamic as ever, even managing to see of a DE close assault!

For me the real nastiness is the Russ's, two 10 strong units of standard variant, one platoon of Thunderers and a mixed platoon including Executioners & Thunderers were battle winners.

They could soak up fire power and due to RA avoid too much supression, their mixed armaments against LV are devastating and with a commissar each, successful rallying lead to near total BM removal each turn.
They could probably claim for 60-70% of enemy kills.

Even though I love them they probably are somewhat underpriced.

Not wanting to reignite the Demolisher debate, in this game either type would have worked well.

This really was a game of soaking up the hits, waiting for the enemy to close and then launching a massive counterstrike, something the Minervans do well! :D






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 Post subject: Dark Eldar vs Minervans 4000pts
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 4:30 am 
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Mosc and Tarrisvaal,

I may not be understanding the crossfire tactics you are referring to properly, but it seems you are considering Marching to support Crossfire...if so, that seems to overlook the following condition from section 1.11:

"You may not use units that are in broken or marching
formations to claim the crossfire bonus."

If I misunderstood your tactics, my apologies.


to E & C,

Regarding the Minervan list, the last time I played them (1.5, if memory serves) I also noted that the costs were low and gave an advantage, and that was facing Necrons!


To all,

On The Demolisher Cannon, I simply can't see why this needed a bump. If the Marines can't win any other way, lower the costs or rename the gun the Vindicator Cannon. Tweaking the IG is unnecessary, and makes the Minervan List even more deadly.

Neat Bat-Rep, losing initiative repeatedly seems to have added to the beating. Dice were cruel. losing with good grace is laudable under such circumstances.  :D

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 Post subject: Dark Eldar vs Minervans 4000pts
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 11:26 am 
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(epilgrim @ Feb. 25 2008,03:30)
QUOTE
I may not be understanding the crossfire tactics you are referring to properly, but it seems you are considering Marching to support Crossfire...if so, that seems to overlook the following condition from section 1.11:

"You may not use units that are in broken or marching
formations to claim the crossfire bonus."

If I misunderstood your tactics, my apologies.

Dark Eldar have a specific special rule that allows them to March and crossfire, or March and support fire.

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 Post subject: Dark Eldar vs Minervans 4000pts
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:44 pm 
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thanks Zombocom,

I was sure I was missing something, Fleet of Foot was in discussion since the last time I played against the DE, just caught myself up with the DE 1.5 list.

tactics firmly understood  :p

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