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[batrep] Emperor's Children vs AMTL

 Post subject: [batrep] Emperor's Children vs AMTL
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:34 am 
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Yeah, is the final nail in the GD coffin as well.

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 Post subject: [batrep] Emperor's Children vs AMTL
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:45 am 
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(rpr @ Nov. 13 2007,21:49)
QUOTE
But now some observation on units, first AMTL:
- melta-cannon is so unbalanced (2x 30cm TK d3 - compare that to typical melee weapons, and this has range!)
- hydras seem so underprices (50 pts for that many attacks)
.

Thanks for the report! It was joy to read it, even thought EC lost. :(

Wow, I had not even payed attention to those meltacannons! Those babyes seems HOT, in bad kind of way.

Reaver with carapace landing platform and 2 Quake is overkill (4 BP Macro with indirect 90 cm (180cm!!)), just like that Reaver with Volkano+2melta (heh, it is 3 tactical and 3 support, so just like it should).

Hydras are efective, but made of soapbubbles, kill one and rest are broken.


Then Emperor's Children (2.0):
- all are fearless but this time it had very little effect - except for Daemon Knights. I would have taken ATSKNF anyday...
- as balance to all-fearless, it has its problems with low activation count (really low..). Then there is this big problem of NO MW
(except melee/some ff and then most expensive titans - in which case you cannot use their own cool titans...). So neither felt it over-powered, quite opposite - but of course engage heavy armies might have problem against them...


Small formations of Fearless, nothing wrong in those IMO. I agree.

- why SR 3? We both just want to hear the logic in this, as other chaos marines have 4... (except Tzeentch 5, but there is good reason for that)

Yeah! EC should have 6, it is their number! :p

But yeah, what makes _fast, nimble_ EC slower to responce than slow and steady DG?

- Debaser sucks. Too bad it is only AA, but is so much worse than defiler. The ultrasonic disruptor should hit better and/or noise blaster should be twin version or something. Maybe 4+ MW for ultrasonic distruptor, noise blaster as AP4+/AT5+ or 2x attacks.. FF back to 3+ (as most noise based have good ff...)

Biggest problem with these Kult Lists is joke-of-a-airdefence, defiler versions.





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 Post subject: [batrep] Emperor's Children vs AMTL
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:59 am 
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The Melta-Cannon really needs to move from Tactical Weapons to Support Weapons, IMHO. It's not too unbalancing in a straight-up stats sense, so much as in a sense that compared to the other tactical weapons it's really really good. And you can fill every weapon slot on a reaver with them if you want to. Six MW3+ TK(D3) shots will ruin almost anyone's day. Shorter range, sure, but so much more effective then most things it's kinda sad...

The Support Weapons are supposed to be better then the standard weapons, though. Quake Cannons are awesome cus you can't field that many of them. Though I think the Plasma Destructor and the Plasma Cannon both are a bit sub-par, that's just me though. Anyway, probably not the best discussion place for that kinda thing...


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 Post subject: [batrep] Emperor's Children vs AMTL
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:48 pm 
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(Nicodemus @ Nov. 14 2007,10:45)
QUOTE
Biggest problem with these Kult Lists is joke-of-a-airdefence, defiler versions.

I expect the Swiftdeaths to be dropped in the Black Legion review early next year, to be replaced by actually available Hell Blades.

Stats for these are under discussion, but as we are working from their Aeronautica values they?ll at least be decent interceptors.

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 Post subject: [batrep] Emperor's Children vs AMTL
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:07 pm 
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Nice report.  The arrows for movement are always very useful.  It makes things so easy to follow.

Is it the angle of the photography, or is that terrain pretty light?

Just counting strictly by the number of terrain pieces, it seems pretty close to the GT levels but they seem smallish.  There are huge, wide open fields of fire and very few places where a formation might actually be able to avoid Line of Sight from the enemy.  There's little terrain that the forces could actually take cover in and most of what is there is around the edge of the board where it won't provide a tactically useful position.

Just looking at the initial setup, I thought "Wow, the EC are going to have trouble with this one"  because the AMTL firepower will be able to chew them up before they get close enough to assault anything.

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 Post subject: [batrep] Emperor's Children vs AMTL
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:30 pm 
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(Nicodemus @ Nov. 14 2007,15:45)
QUOTE
Reaver with carapace landing platform and 2 Quake is overkill (4 BP Macro with indirect 90 cm (180cm!!)),

That actually was a very expected set up and the system is supposed to be balanced for it.

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 Post subject: [batrep] Emperor's Children vs AMTL
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:49 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Nov. 14 2007,16:07)
QUOTE
Is it the angle of the photography, or is that terrain pretty light?

Just counting strictly by the number of terrain pieces, it seems pretty close to the GT levels but they seem smallish.  There are huge, wide open fields of fire and very few places where a formation might actually be able to avoid Line of Sight from the enemy.  There's little terrain that the forces could actually take cover in and most of what is there is around the edge of the board where it won't provide a tactically useful position.

Just looking at the initial setup, I thought "Wow, the EC are going to have trouble with this one"  because the AMTL firepower will be able to chew them up before they get close enough to assault anything.

Well this is the problem/feature of the Charads battlefield and I have complained about it both times we have been playing... =]

(and yes, I know that I was in trouble.. no cover, outranged... )


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 Post subject: [batrep] Emperor's Children vs AMTL
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:28 pm 
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Thanks for the BatRep.  :cool:

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 Post subject: [batrep] Emperor's Children vs AMTL
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:56 pm 
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Thanks for the batrep! Great stuff!

Comments on the EC noted. Why do they only have SR3? Those Noise Marines tend to get ... distracted ....

I'm willing to conceed it falls against the "high initiative" theme they've developed - but bear in mind this fast-reflexes thing has ONLY arisen in the latest Codex. That is new.


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 Post subject: [batrep] Emperor's Children vs AMTL
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:17 pm 
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(Lord Inquisitor @ Nov. 15 2007,16:56)
QUOTE
Comments on the EC noted. Why do they only have SR3? Those Noise Marines tend to get ... distracted ....

You could do a "variable" Strategy Rating similar to what I did with the Alpha Legion.

Perhaps SR 4 or 5 for setup and first turn, but down to SR 3 for subsequent turns as they get "distracted" from the mission.

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 Post subject: [batrep] Emperor's Children vs AMTL
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:19 pm 
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(Chroma @ Nov. 15 2007,12:17)
QUOTE
You could do a "variable" Strategy Rating similar to what I did with the Alpha Legion.

Or even more variable - SRD6 every turn  :O

So a normal army would roll D6+SR every turn, while an Emperor's Child would simply roll 2D6! It would represent your forces reacting with utterly inhuman speed or getting entirely distracted with torturing civilians that they become blindsided and everything inbetween...

An interesting idea... what does everyone think of that?


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 Post subject: [batrep] Emperor's Children vs AMTL
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:14 pm 
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(Lord Inquisitor @ Nov. 15 2007,20:19)
QUOTE

(Chroma @ Nov. 15 2007,12:17)
QUOTE
You could do a "variable" Strategy Rating similar to what I did with the Alpha Legion.

Or even more variable - SRD6 every turn  :O

So a normal army would roll D6+SR every turn, while an Emperor's Child would simply roll 2D6! It would represent your forces reacting with utterly inhuman speed or getting entirely distracted with torturing civilians that they become blindsided and everything inbetween...

An interesting idea... what does everyone think of that?

Uh, dangerous invariability, but could work...
But then how :
a) at the start of the game (setup etc.)
b) all things that are done in the initiative order (teleports, end of turn rallys) (ok this is already a bit fuzzy if the armies have same SR)

My suggestion: SR 4, but strategy phase initiative roll is made as 2d6 instead (so effectually is approx. 3.5 during that phase)

..if we need yet another rule :]  (but at least this is simple - but I hope that Daemon pool rule is ditched... if not, EC needs extra rule concerning it)


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 Post subject: [batrep] Emperor's Children vs AMTL
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:32 am 
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And so the circle is complete. isn't this where we started with BL variable SR? I am relaxed about this, but would vote for D6 per turn and not before the game as with the book IG commissars.

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 Post subject: [batrep] Emperor's Children vs AMTL
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:50 pm 
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(Tiny-Tim @ Nov. 16 2007,09:32)
QUOTE
And so the circle is complete. isn't this where we started with BL variable SR?

Heh.  Yep.  Dead on.  In fact, I think I posted virtually identical comments to rpr regarding the problems of random SR...

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 Post subject: [batrep] Emperor's Children vs AMTL
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:57 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Nov. 16 2007,13:50)
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Heh. ?Yep. ?Dead on. ?In fact, I think I posted virtually identical comments to rpr regarding the problems of random SR...

Well, I'm not proposing "random" Strategy Rating, just variable.

Here's a new one:  *Decreasing* Strategy Rating!  Start at SR4 and it goes down by one each subsequent turn...

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