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[batrep] Emperor's Children vs. Ultwe
Charad
 Post subject: [batrep] Emperor's Children vs. Ultwe
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:24 pm 
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It makes nightwings a must if aircover is wanted. Also with current seer council cost (100pts) it makes mounted black guardians ( I want supreme on field and on foot it is not very effective) cost 500pts (Bg 200+SC 100+ Serpents 200) and that means them becoming Bts if titans are not taken (okay, max beefed guardians costs more too). this personally hurts my playing a bit, because previously I could take 2 EoV:s sometimes to be the bts target.

Also limiting troupes and decreasing amounts of firestorms in swords of vauls hurts a lot.

Now comes Lost, I tell something of EC soon...

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Charad
 Post subject: [batrep] Emperor's Children vs. Ultwe
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:20 pm 
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Okay, some words about EC.

The list was quite hard and entertaining to play against, all fearless and extremely fast resilient army (better base move than eldar have) with some FF nastiness. And huge downsides are very bad AA, lack of shooting TK and MW weapons and expensive units.

-They have huge amount of fearless scouts and those knights are awesome. 3 shooting attacks per knight, fearless, invu, fast, scout, ini 1, Ouch! Definately worth 450pts.

So, as they are fearless and having huge ZoCs with many units, I needed to go for a kill, not just breaking.

Predator, engaging tank???

Questor and subjucator are interesting units. cheap, fast and effective. Questor feels a bit better (sometimes even better than warhound), but subjucator has it's uses too. (cheap Tormentor) They also give nice different feeling for EC.

Variable strategy rating. Very unreliable and quite fun. I really like to test them more. But as rpr said, some units are overcosted and some slightly undercosted, and those fearless scouts are.. not nice. :)

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rpr
 Post subject: [batrep] Emperor's Children vs. Ultwe
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:45 am 
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(Charad @ Dec. 06 2007,22:20)
QUOTE
Variable strategy rating. Very unreliable and quite fun. I really like to test them more. But as rpr said, some units are overcosted and some slightly undercosted, and those fearless scouts are.. not nice. :)

We need to play more anyway, as you forgot (blame me..) your army list notebook at my place - and we know very well that there is absolutely no other way to give it back to you and to find the cultrip one than to settle this by an Epic fight!

Maybe next time I could test something like:
chosen
chosen + dc
retinue + dprince + pact + dc
retinue + dc
devastation
legionnaires
hell blades
hell talons
bikes (sc) + sirens
5 lesser daemons
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nealhunt
 Post subject: [batrep] Emperor's Children vs. Ultwe
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:05 pm 
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The Eldar have wicked AA capabilities.  Firestorms and the auxiliary AA on a large portion of their WEs have 45cm range and it's possible to take large numbers of AA-capable units with very little loss of other capability.  Nightwings are darn nice interceptors, especially against landers with RA which are pretty much invulnerable to anything but criticals against other armies.

On top of the quantity and quality of AA they have access to, Eldar have small forces that can bunch up under an AA umbrella.

If an Eldar army is vulnerable to air, it's an army design and use issue, not a matter of the list's capabilities.

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: [batrep] Emperor's Children vs. Ultwe
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:45 pm 
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Great stuff!

So, what did you think of the 2D6 initiative roll?

As far as I'm concerned, you can just use the subjugator/questor points values from the LATD list from now on. Still too expensive?

Really think the debasers are that rubbish? They look okay to me!

So how many points would Retinues have to be before you would consider taking them? That you have stripped them from your list is pretty convincing that you think they're too expensive!
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Charad
 Post subject: [batrep] Emperor's Children vs. Ultwe
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:19 pm 
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On top of the quantity and quality of AA they have access to, Eldar have small forces that can bunch up under an AA umbrella.

If an Eldar army is vulnerable to air, it's an army design and use issue, not a matter of the list's capabilities.


Quality is great, but quantity is not so good anymore. I mean't with vulnerability that even small ground attack aircraft formations makes huge mess on eldar lines, if not countered properly. It is not that eldar couldn't handle air fights, but they should be better with that issue than orks.

Ulthwe list is fine, only few minor issues:
-Seer council's cost is a bit too high
-only 2 troupes per warhost makes army lists look a bit similar each time.
Like I mentioned, it is only a minor thing, and I can still enjoy every game I play with them. :)

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rpr
 Post subject: [batrep] Emperor's Children vs. Ultwe
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:31 pm 
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So, what did you think of the 2D6 initiative roll?


2d6 seems to work ..interestingly. It was swell idea and I will keep on trying it out (and use SR4 for other situations than for the strategy roll). Of course how to handle daemon pool (but that daemon pool change by low/high strategy roll is something always forgotten anyway...)

As far as I'm concerned, you can just use the subjugator/questor points values from the LATD list from now on. Still too expensive?

I have planned as soon as I start to use fixed point values for other formations too :]  (to make up for more points needed for Questors ;)

Really think the debasers are that rubbish? They look okay to me!


Yeah I think... very weak weapons when compared to Defiler:
Lets say that ultrasonic disruptor is as good as defiler cannon. Other has AA+disrupt, other hits AT better, has much longer range, and can use barrage and indirect..
But then blastmaster is worse than twin lascannon and death wailer does not have 15cm range attack and it has worse FF... (doesn't sonic equipped units usually have better FF, not worse..?)

(of course you might come to conclusion that Defiler is underpriced and Debaser is of right price... I was playing with idea that ultrasonic disruptor could have 60cm range but then it might become too cheap when compared to SM Hunter - except Hunter is much better because it can keep up with mobile troops unlike Debaser which is quite stuck - but which OTOH can be garrisoned to watch the entire board...)

So how many points would Retinues have to be before you would consider taking them? That you have stripped them from your list is pretty convincing that you think they're too expensive!

275 for retinue, 350 for havoc retinue.
(and while at this, 85 for land raider, 70 as transport upgrade, 500 for 6 LR for chosen, and 450 for 6 daemon engines ... =)

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Charad
 Post subject: [batrep] Emperor's Children vs. Ultwe
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:19 pm 
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And 500pts for the knights. :)
Black legion has 75pts land raiders, and having EC similar but fearless at same cost is a bit too much.

Havocs surely are bit too expensive, when compared to other choices.

Let's play sometime soon again, I have plenty of time after christmas.

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rpr
 Post subject: [batrep] Emperor's Children vs. Ultwe
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:52 pm 
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(Charad @ Dec. 07 2007,22:19)
QUOTE
Black legion has 75pts land raiders, and having EC similar but fearless at same cost is a bit too much.

They do not have, they are 100 right now. I propose same price as for SM land raiders..
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