Don't thinks so TRC - there is no 'OR' in the stats, so he gets an extra MW attack in FF and 2 extra MW attacks in CC!

I think you are referring to the Chaos lord he replaces which gets one or other weapon depending upon Faction.

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

Thanks - and to nit-pick in return , the current proposal is both to drop the TK stats and add 'Inspiring' to the DP.

IMHO, that is more than worth the exchange (because you are changing from a possible kill to a greater certainty of +1 in the roll off). As I contend that the DP is already too powerfull / underpriced, this seems to be a step (however slight) in the wrong direction.

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

Going totally from the description, so only a fuzzy idea of where things really were, I would have gone with...

1) Warhound sustains on the Chosen with BMs.  There's about a 50% chance of 2 kills, which would break them outright - 4 units, 5 BMs (2 from teleport, 2 from kills, 1 for coming under fire).

2) If they don't break, FF them with the Reaver with the Warhound and Termies in support.  FF is not likely to wipe out the shields, so no kills for CSMs, average ~2 kills for marines, no BM vs BM, outnumbering (Reaver at 6, Chosen almost certainly at least 1 casualty)... that's about +4 resolution mod (+5, -1 for Inspiring DP).  That should have stripped them down to just the DP and the Reaver should have been able to get close enough to the Termies that if the other Chosen assaulted, it could support.  In fact, if the placement was right, the Reaver could have left one of the non-engaged Chosen in support range just so they would get a BM for supporting a lost engagement.

If you get lucky and they break then you hammer the other formation of Chosen with either the Reaver or the Termies and make sure you keep everyone close enough to support against any assaults.

_________________
Neal

The DP is not a WE, so it´s either CC or FF, never able to split attacks!



1.12.5 Resolve Attacks
All units have two assault values: a close combat value
and a firefight value. Units that are in base-to-base
contact with the enemy use the close combat value,
while units that are not in base contact but are within
15cm and have a line of fire to the enemy can use their
firefight value.

_________________
Visit www.epic-battles.de the ultimate german epic site&forum!

Nice counter   (Lord of Chaos some of those smilies are silly!)

Inspiring for TK is a downgrade in my book, DPs used to be ideal vs, the hardened targets no other unit in the BL list could tackle, many of which are Fearless. Of course, you still win the assault but can´t properly damage those WEs.

With TK, my preferred target was IG Tank Coys, swarm with Daemonic Beasts to reduce return fire and count on the DP to smash sufficient Russes to net a win, with 4+RA and Inspiring on the other side one needs every single kill.

I usually roll lots of 1´s and 2´s for my DP in these situations...  

_________________
Visit www.epic-battles.de the ultimate german epic site&forum!

Hmmm - not so sure there Neal. In retrospect, I did make two slight blunders and as a consequence, your approach might have done better than TRC's. Instead of teleporting into a cross-fire position and placing the DPs in the rear of each formation relative to the WEs, it seems the formations would probably have been better side-by-side with the DPs in the front; or even possibly intermingled to provide a 12 strong formation.

However, assuming I had placed the Chosen better, or you had left the second formation "in support", and given average dice rolling I think the assault stats would be pretty close :-
:- Black Legion would get 12x 3+ and 2x 3+ MW (assuming no Oblits )
:- Marines would get 10x 3+ and 3x 4+

That should work out at BL getting 8 normal and 1.3 MW hits, Vs Marines getting 8 normal hits. After the shields are stripped away, I think that could still cause ~2 hits on the Reaver, while assuming the DP is in the front rank, slightly less than 2 Chosen die in return. OK, so the marines are up +2 overall for BMs ('Inspiring' cancelling out outnumbering) and the BL lose with the broken DP and 1 or two Chosen scuttling off somewhere (as occurred in the game).

However, the BL now have the second Chosen formation together with a set of Daemons ready to pounce on the unshielded and damaged Reaver in CC. Given the large number of normal and MW dice this would generate, I would suggest there is every chance that the Reaver would die before the supports get a look in, leaving a relatively undamaged Chosen formation (~5 units and Daemons) sitting on the Blitz with the WH and Termies in attendance - by no means a foregone conclusion either way in the following turn  

Worse, given that the broken DP has moved more than 30cms away, it has a 2/3 chance of rallying, shedding all it's BMs, generating more daemons and coming back into the fight to tip the odds back in favour of the BL.

Or in summary, statistically the 970 point BL formations would seem to be roughly equivalent to the 1325 point Marine formations. Does that seem right??  

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

Indeed!

_________________
Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

I'm not a fan of the change either as it means that I now need to take Titans where before I could make do with DPs.

_________________
Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

DP - ah yes, getting confused with the champion!


Positions after teleport

             
   Termies      Chosen

       reaver
chosen
             warhound

All the infantry were diagonal. I still reckoned I should have slaughtered him no matter what I did! As it was a sustaining warhound did nowt and cliping assaulting terminators got wiped out (see above for the average hits we should have been getting).

Saying that if he went first he could have butchered the Reaver and either the Warhound or the termies, so fun and games

But yes its all a bit academic now. Having poor results everywhere else didn't help either!

_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

I dunno, the Reaver should have tried to crossfire the Deathwheels first thing and then maneuvered for a safe-but-crossfiring position on the retinues.

SM have plenty of effective FF support options but the Reaver was this list´s premier AT unit and should have been employed accordingly.

_________________
Visit www.epic-battles.de the ultimate german epic site&forum!

I am going to have to draw a map for everyone The Reaver was 100 cm's away from the deathwheels turn 1. Not even the warhound could have used the devs behind them for crossfire!

_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

Thats a bad picture. I blame it ont he brand new tablet pc, first time I've tried that.

It should show devs and deathwheels top right, on the left devs and tacticals on the edge of a wood containing a strung out chaos infantry formation, another strung out chaos infantry formation towards the centre, then another to the right of that stringing out in a south easterly direction. The latter two I think both headed into some terrain with some chaps left in the open stringing back to within 15cm of the objective.

The top right devs were almost all 10cm within the wood.

_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

In essence that is pretty close to what TRC did in the end. If you can follow TRC's diag, you will see that the Reaver was ~15cms in front of the Blitz, while the Wheels were on their 15 cms line ~50cms West of their blitz. The Wheels advanced 30 cms towards the centre of the battlefield to assault the tacticals. Later on, the Reaver doubled forwards to a point just short of mid-table, but some 46 cms away from the Wheels (by pure fluke - it was not measured).

Had they been more centrally placed, the wheels could have advanced nearly 45 cms in front of their blitz, which would have allowed the marines to place some part of one of the Tacticals 'behind' the Wheels to gain cross-fire from the doubling Reaver. While this would have cancelled out the effect of doubling, the hits gained would have probably achieved more damage and probably broken them as a result.

However, in doing so the Reaver has escaped the two Chosen formations  to run into three retinues, each with an Oblit and DP. Adding the Daemons to the assault, and each Retinue can kick out a hefty number of dice (as one did) and would seem capable of dealing with the Reaver with some confidence.

Well as TRC says; "you live and learn"

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

Reading the report both sides got 2 BMs,don't forget the Space Marines only count half the BMs in an assault now so would be on +1 for less BMs.

In the situation Ginger and TRC show with the 2 chosen formations and the Reaver,Warhounds and Termies I would have played completely different to what anyone has suggested.

If the Game was played to try to beat the DP horde not to prove the DPs could be killed and we are trying to go with average dice rolls etc. I would have used the Reaver to assault the chosen formation with the BMs but positioned it to only get(if possible) 2 stands in range(making sure the others could only counter charge to the Termies) and possibly 1 from the other chosen group to lend support(and add a BM for supporting a lost assault).

With average dice rolls the Reaver should only have lost a couple of shields (2 attacks on 3+ and 1 from support on 3+  should result in 2 hits and only 2 shields going down).
The return should have been 4 hits from Reaver equalling 1 dead chosen and another 4 hits from the warhound and termies(in support phase) resulting in the other chosen dying.
This should result in the Reaver being on +2 for BMs,+2 for kills,+ 1 for outnumbering and -1 for the Inspiring DP(if using the recomended changes) +4 altogether and leaving only the Fearless DP and Oblit to survive.

The Reaver would then use its 5cm consolidation to move towards the other Chosen formation and repeat the process of assaulting this time with the Warhound (again trying to only get 2 chosen in FF range and forcing any counter charge moves by the uninvolved units to have to be away from the warhound).

The resulting FF should leave the Warhound only losing 1 or 2 shields and the chosen with 1 dead stand (1 hit from Warhound and 4 from Reaver).
This would then leave the Warhound on + 2 for BMs,+1 for kills and -2 for being outnumbered/inspiring and the 2nd chosen formation should also be down to just the Fearless DP and oblit.

This is how I would usually try to deal with teleporters in normal games.Clipping FF assaults with Warhounds(Speeders too if i'm using marines)with the support of the formation being targeted by the teleporters but hey what do I know