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Gargant Big Mob list development

 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:55 am 
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kadeton wrote:
Do the Oddboys in this list come with their standard Soopagun/Supa-Zzap weaponry, or do they have to buy them as upgrades from the Gargant Weapons? I don't much fancy paying 100 points for an Oddboy to get the same weapons they normally get for 50. Even if you get the normal weapons by default, I'm not sure why you'd switch them for other Gargant weapons at that price. It might be simpler to leave them with their usual choice of weapon - leave the Gargant weapons for the Gargants. (Otherwise I suspect you'd see a lot of Oddboys lugging around Gutbuster Kannons.)


Yes, this is something a thought about as well. I agree that the easy sollution is to make the Oddboyz like their counterparts in the approved lists.

kadeton wrote:
Can I suggest that the Mega-Choppa and Ripper Fist should probably be 0-1? (Possibly even 0-1 choice of melee weapon, rather than one of each.) While it would be hilarious to see a three-armed chainsaw-Gargant going hog-wild on some other hapless Titan, it's very out of keeping with normal expectations.

Well, this is an ork list which should cater to the weird and funky builds. As long as it's not a broken OOP build I don't mind allowing it at all. I'm rather hoping that people will field Chainsaw Gargants now and then! ;D

kadeton wrote:
I'm not sure how I feel about Dreads, Kans, buggies etc being able to be transported - that's a weird image. Regardless, there are a few typos in the current Transporta description. For clarity and consistency, the current version should probably read something like:
    "The unit gains Transport. It may transport a number of infantry units, light vehicle units, Dreadnought units and Killa Kan units equal to twice its starting DC, plus a number of Grotz equal to its starting DC. Light vehicles and Dreadnoughts count as two units each."
Though I would personally reduce that to just foot infantry:
    "The unit gains Transport. It may transport a number of infantry units without Jump Packs or Mounted equal to twice its starting DC, plus a number of Grotz equal to its starting DC."

The wording was copied right from the 2.2 list. Yous is better i think so i will use that. I don't think transporting LV:s is that bad or OOP so i'll keep it in there for now.

kadeton wrote:
The pricing on weaponry doesn't seem quite right - a standard Great Gargant (Ghaz list) can get two Twin Soopaguns + Soopagun for 850 points, but the same loadout in this list costs 900 points.

I actually think it's the Great Gargant that costs a little bit to much. Originally i was thinking about pricing it around 650-675 "naked". I was just afraid that it would be to low. Maybe we can start with 675 and see how that goes.

kadeton wrote:
No Nobz or other sources of Leader in the entire list? That's a bit hairy. Preserving the old Warband's option for 0-1 Nobz would be nice. Alternatively, adding a Leader bonus to the effect of Dave's Gork/Mork head could be a neat thematic alternative? No Nobz in the list, but the Boyz are bolstered by the Gargants instead.

Nobz missing is a Typo. Thanks for spotting that.
Yes, i really like the Head of Gork/Mork idea. Maybe put that in as a Kustom Upgrade?

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:58 am 
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mordoten wrote:
Well, this is an ork list which should cater to the weird and funky builds. As long as it's not a broken OOP build I don't mind allowing it at all. I'm rather hoping that people will field Chainsaw Gargants now and then! ;D

Now that I stop and think about it, I totally agree. :D

Quote:
I don't think transporting LV:s is that bad or OOP so i'll keep it in there for now.

Transporting LVs is impossible, since there aren't any in the list. :P

Disgorging up to 18 Killa Kanz from a Great Gargant might well give your opponent a heart attack!

Quote:
I actually think it's the Great Gargant that costs a little bit to much. Originally i was thinking about pricing it around 650-675 "naked". I was just afraid that it would be to low. Maybe we can start with 675 and see how that goes.

Does 'naked' mean with no weapons at all? Great Gargants (Ghaz version) have a Soopagun (50 pts), two Twin Soopaguns (75pts each), and two Big Gunz (not available as an upgrade yet), as well at the Gaze of Mork which I assume is standard on all Gargant loadouts. That's at least 200 points off the 850-point price tag, plus the cost of the Big Gunz if they don't come standard. You'd need to start at 650 and go down from there.

(I have a suspicion that Great Gargants are priced so high because it's a kludgy way of preventing them being taken alongside Landas at 3000 points - since that's not a problem in this list, and the Gargants are meant to be the central feature, I think they could easily afford to drop a bit further. I'd start the Gargant at 450 and the Great Gargant at 600 - weapons and upgrades will easily make up the difference. I'd also drop the Mega-Gargant to 1000 or less.)


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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:02 am 
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kadeton wrote:
Can I suggest that the Mega-Choppa and Ripper Fist should probably be 0-1? (Possibly even 0-1 choice of melee weapon, rather than one of each.) While it would be hilarious to see a three-armed chainsaw-Gargant going hog-wild on some other hapless Titan, it's very out of keeping with normal expectations.

Multiple melee weapons on a large WE walker would be fine and very appropriate for orks.

The net-ea and epic-uk TL lists both allow titans with up to 4 Power Fists (which are each significantly more powerful than the ork versions having + 3 TK (D3) attacks each) without problems. A Reaver with multiple melee weapons could be nasty, as it's fast, but enemies will often avoid a similar slow Gargant.


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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:19 am 
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kadeton wrote:
Disgorging up to 18 Killa Kanz from a Great Gargant might well give your opponent a heart attack!

Well, you could fit 18 in a great Gargant by buuying a Normal size loota warband and adding 16 extra Killa Kans. Thats gonna cost you 575 points though so i'm not to worried thats going to be spammed to much.

kadeton wrote:
Does 'naked' mean with no weapons at all? Great Gargants (Ghaz version) have a Soopagun (50 pts), two Twin Soopaguns (75pts each), and two Big Gunz (not available as an upgrade yet), as well at the Gaze of Mork which I assume is standard on all Gargant loadouts. That's at least 200 points off the 850-point price tag, plus the cost of the Big Gunz if they don't come standard. You'd need to start at 650 and go down from there.
Sorry, haven't finished the statlines for every unit yet, so i haven't posted all the info. The Great Gargants will have the Gaze of Mork and the 2xBig Gunz as standard loadout (Gargants will have only Gaze of Mork) included in their "naked" cost. I also calculated it to 650 at first but got worried that it might be too low really. Gargants will stay at 500 for now.
(I have a suspicion that Great Gargants are priced so high because it's a kludgy way of preventing them being taken alongside Landas at 3000 points - since that's not a problem in this list, and the Gargants are meant to be the central feature, I think they could easily afford to drop a bit further. I'd start the Gargant at 450 and the Great Gargant at 600 - weapons and upgrades will easily make up the difference. I'd also drop the Mega-Gargant to 1000 or less.)


Sorry, haven't finished the statlines for every unit yet, so i haven't posted all the info.
Great Gargants will have the Gaze of Mork and the 2xBig Gunz as standard loadout (Gargants will have only Gaze of Mork) included in their "naked" cost. I also calculated it to 650 at first but got worried that it might be too low really.
Gargants will stay at 500 for now.
Mega Gargants have recieved 5+RA and both the Transporta and Wyrdboy Tower upgrade which i think make them reasonable priced around 1050.

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:29 am 
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Dr. Pepper wrote:
Hi, thank you for your effort with this list!

Some time ago I tried to patch together my own list just for fun. It didn't get far and was never intended to be anything official, but maybe you can get some inspirations from it. What's missing in the pdf are the unit stats, but they should be clear except for:
Mekboy Stompa: was supposed to replace the Supa Stompa as that one is so similar to the Gargants, and I wanted more variety in speed and AA. Its stats are the same as a Supa Stompa, just with a speed of 20cm and a weapon loadout of 2 weedy gunz, 2 Flakk guns, Gaze of Mork/Gork. So it is loosely based on a mix of a Supa Stompa, the old Kustom Gargant, a speed upgrade, and downgraded weapons to provide a cheaper "little-Gargant".
Iron Squig was supposed to be a nerfed Krawler, but I never got around to designing the rules. Nerfed, because IMO it had too many DC and was too safe as a transport.

I think the Killa Kan formation with scout is a nice theme to gain more cheap formations on the ground, competing with Fighta Bommas.

The idea behind the Mekboy KoS was to provide some speedy elements while keeping the mek theme.


Thanks, i definitely take a look and see what ideas you have!

Dr. Pepper wrote:
I think E&C mentioned once he planned to change the Bomma to 150 pts. Are you working off the same stats? Might the point drop also be appropriate here?


Yes, same stats. I think a DC3 unit should probably not be costed under 200 though.

Dr. Pepper wrote:
I cannot find any limitation on slots depending on your gargant choices, as in the old list. I think such a rule is definitely needed in a WE heavy army to prevent list with a few strong WEs and a lot of the cheapest formation for activations. With such a rule you probably also do not need to add a limit to Fighta Bommas, as the limited number of formation slots available will force you to decide between cheap air units and important ground troops.


Damn, I missed that too! Thanks for pointing it out! Mega Gargants and Great Gargants will allow 4 non-Gargant choices each, Hagrgants will allow 3 non-Gargant choices each. Drop Rocks, Bommer, Fighta-Bombas and Space craft are restricted by the usual 1/3 points rule.

Dr. Pepper wrote:
I once calculated that Stompas - compared to our other walkers - would best fit in the 60-65 pts price range. +50pts for an additional Stompa might be too cheap, they are definitely better than two Killa Kans for the same price.

Hmm... yes, i've had quite a few suggestions on them. I'm trying to compare them to a Leman Russ which is costed around 60-65 i think. The stompas are slower, have less range on their ranged weapons, but they also have a better CC value, Walker and an extra MW attack i CC. Maybe 60 points is more fitting...

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:56 am 
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mordoten wrote:
Mega Gargants and Great Gargants will allow 4 non-Gargant choices each, Hagrgants will allow 3 non-Gargant choices each. Drop Rocks, Bommer, Fighta-Bombas and Space craft are restricted by the usual 1/3 points rule.


I'm not sure I follow this line of reasoning... what's the problem with allowing some big war engines and a bunch of cheap activations? You can already do that in tons of lists, including every other Ork list, with no artificial restrictions.

Adding a "0-4 other formations per Gargant" limitation is the same as saying "Your army must include exactly two Gargants". Lists generally need around 7-9 activations to be competitive. More than two Gargants and you're out of points.

I really don't like that restriction.


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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:08 am 
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If you have 2 D6+ fearless void shielded war engines plus the same amount of activations as a 'normal list' where you could only get 1 on your 1/3 allowance then the worst the list will do is draw.
Put 2 objectives within 30cm of each other and park one WE on there in your opponents half and the other on your own blitz and it's impossible to lose without shifting them. The balancing factor is if your opponent out activates you (and you can't get all the things a list needs like AA, scouts and speed) then the extra activations can gang up on the WES, restrict their movement etc

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:40 am 
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Yes, a restriction like that exists in other Titan-esque lists like AMTL one. Steve54 explains it very good.

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 12:22 pm 
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But that's not what this restriction achieves, is it?

You don't want to have two big War Engines and still have as many activations as other lists - fair enough, I can see how that might be a balance problem. However this list, with the restriction included, allows you to have two Gargants and up to eight other activations - that's easily as many as most competitive lists. Isn't that exactly the problem you were trying to avoid?

What this restriction does not allow you to do is have only one Gargant. That's the army that's forced to let the opponent out-activate it, because it can have a maximum of five activations.

The only type of army you are stopping with this restriction is a one-Gargant list - the kind that you can already do within the restrictions of the Ghaz list, for example, but without any of the Orkstein flavour. The restriction actually encourages (almost forces) the player to take two big War Engines and a lot of cheap activations.


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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 12:50 pm 
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kadeton wrote:
But that's not what this restriction achieves, is it?

You don't want to have two big War Engines and still have as many activations as other lists - fair enough, I can see how that might be a balance problem. However this list, with the restriction included, allows you to have two Gargants and up to eight other activations - that's easily as many as most competitive lists. Isn't that exactly the problem you were trying to avoid?

What this restriction does not allow you to do is have only one Gargant. That's the army that's forced to let the opponent out-activate it, because it can have a maximum of five activations.

kadeton wrote:
The only type of army you are stopping with this restriction is a one-Gargant list - the kind that you can already do within the restrictions of the Ghaz list, for example, but without any of the Orkstein flavour. The restriction actually encourages (almost forces) the player to take two big War Engines and a lot of cheap activations.


What? Thats overexaggerating a bit i think. You can easily fit 3 gargants and 6 small activations more also. Which also ends up as 8 activations.

Same thing goes for the AMTL list which is Approved (and i helped quite a bit doing that) 2 reavers, 2 singelton warhounds, 2 sentinel formations and 2 thunderbolts gives you 550 points to spend on your titans weapons and upgrades. thats also 8 activations. But 4 of them are super weak, and 2 of them can't claim objectives at all.

Same with cheap fighta bombas. They can't claim objectives which is a central feature of the game. and the 175 point loota formations wont last that long either i think.

So i think you're making a hen out of a feather right now. Only playtesting weird builds will prove whats wrong or right i guess. I will post the 3.1.1 list tomorrow which will feature a few changes (stompas going to 60 points, head of mork/gork as an upgrade etc). that list will stand for a while until we get in atleast 3-4 battle reports with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:01 pm 
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I think all of those armies are fine, though. I guess I just can't quite see what a "problem" army would look like - the problem that Steve mentioned was a two-Gargant army with as many activations as a "normal" army, but the restriction doesn't stop you from doing that.

I am probably making too much of it - I would just like the option to run an army with a single customised Great Gargant (or a Mega-Gargant). That kind of army doesn't seem to be the "problem" (since it falls within "normal" parameters), but it is completely killed by the restriction.

If someone could build a "problem" army using the unrestricted list, that would be really helpful to understand what problem we're actually talking about. Maybe then we could find a solution that solves the problem but doesn't enforce a two-Gargant minimum.


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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:06 pm 
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Well, if you want to build an army around a single gargant or Great Gargant, theres always the Warhorde to use...
This list is supposed to focus on the gargants and allowing people to field up to 5 in a list is something that does just that.

I'm not trying to belittle (is that the expression?) your opinions or ideas (you have suggested lots of great ideas so far!), i just don't really see the point of fielding 1 gargant in a list that is supposed to make you field several.

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:14 pm 
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mordoten wrote:
Nobz missing is a Typo. Thanks for spotting that.
Yes, i really like the Head of Gork/Mork idea. Maybe put that in as a Kustom Upgrade?


They were missing from 2.2 for fluff reasons.

Quote:
An army lead and organised by Big Meks and
mekaniaks is often viewed of as too soft or even, that
most distinct Orkish insult, too brainy. So most Nobz,
and even most Boyz, tend to avoid associating with Big
Meks and Mekboys in general. Occasionally the
members of a warband or will find themselves
temporarily accompanying the Bigmob until they can
find more acceptable, Orky, compatriots to fight with.
Or at least someone who isn't always taking apart all
their weapons just before a good punch-up starts! As
such, most formations in the Bigmob do not have Nobz
available to them and even warbands that do have
Nobz have a very limited number of them.

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:32 pm 
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So, anyone have a good reason why this is not a good idea?:

Kustom Upgrade:

0-1 Head of Gork/Mork 25 points
All Non-Gargant formations within 15cm of the Gargant may add The DC of the Gargant to their unit size when using the "Mob Rule" special rule.

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:17 pm 
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mordoten wrote:
Well, if you want to build an army around a single gargant or Great Gargant, theres always the Warhorde to use...
This list is supposed to focus on the gargants and allowing people to field up to 5 in a list is something that does just that.

I'm not trying to belittle (is that the expression?) your opinions or ideas (you have suggested lots of great ideas so far!), i just don't really see the point of fielding 1 gargant in a list that is supposed to make you field several.


Well, it's a nice option if you'd like to field a single Mega-Gargant, for example. :P

I guess I'm more looking at the flipside - why stop people from building an army in a particular way, unless that army build causes balance problems?

Just off the top of my head, you could provide exactly the same restriction to lists with two or more Gargants, while still allowing lists with only one Gargant, if the restriction was simply "An Orkstein's Gargant Bigmob army can include no more than ten formations," or to allow for scaling, "no more than one formation per 300 points in the army."

The Head of Gork/Mork looks awesome. My only issues with it would be the somewhat clunky name, and the fact that Mega-Gargants can't take it. :P


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