jimmyzimms wrote:
GlynG speaks the truth. In addition, bending the list to out of production models vs what's fun and balanced is the tail wagging the dog.
I'm so confused. Isn't that what Glyn is doing?
GlynG wrote:
In conclusion if looking at a truescale Landa next to the truescale Bommer the Bommer would look a fair bit smaller and less bulky, hence 2DC being more fitting.
Despite what you'd prefer the Bommerz clearly don't have rokkits in their rules or models and it wouldn't be a good idea to invent some in the epic stats.
Also the models have multiple Heavy Shootas at distinct arcs too rather than gun turrets like on a Landa.
We should model the actual models fairly accurately and then cost and tweak it appropriately from there.
I'm not disagreeing with any of his conclusions, but that sounds exactly like "bending the list to out of production models" to me. My suggestions are all based on "What would I pay for in a Bommer instead of taking more Fighta-Bommas?" I couldn't care less about AI rules or GW models, I just want something that's a viable alternative.
GlynG wrote:
The Ork Bommer is a 'truescale' FW model (i.e. the same scale as the infantry, vehicles, ect in the game), while the Ork Landa is a GW metal flyer - which were all a fair bit scaled smaller than the ground models - and no way large enough a model to realistically fit the 70 infantry inside it.
Fair enough. I know nothing about the models, all my fliers are proxied. I was just going off the only comparison shot provided. Good to know!
GlynG wrote:
I use truescale flyers and would never use the GW Landa model, much too small and weedy looking! Troublemaker Games produced a decent proxy for a truescale Landa, the Droghur Shuttle.
Yep, those are the ones I use. They're awesome.
TBH, they're probably also what I would use to proxy Bommers, regardless of what the Bommer's final stats look like, simply because I already have them.
GlynG wrote:
Despite what you'd prefer the Bommerz clearly don't have rokkits in their rules or models and it wouldn't be a good idea to invent some in the epic stats.
Sorry, might not have been clear - I don't care whether the model has rokkits, or any particular set of weaponry. I just want whatever weaponry it has to be good enough that I'll bother to take it.
GlynG wrote:
Also the models have multiple Heavy Shootas at distinct arcs too rather than gun turrets like on a Landa. We should model the actual models fairly accurately and then cost and tweak it appropriately from there.
Okay, though I think this is "tail wagging the dog" as jimmyzimms mentioned. I'd rather have something that was fun and balanced foremost, and matched the models as a secondary concern - I don't have the models anyway, so that doesn't matter to me. However, other people do, so I'm fine with getting it as close as possible.
Personally, I hate individually arced weaponry, and enjoy the fact that Ork planes don't have it in general, but if you can make it work effectively I can learn to live with it.
GlynG wrote:
I suggest:
Ork Bommer WE/AC Bomber 5+
Bombs 15cm D3 BP
2 x Twin Heavy Shoota 15cm AP4+/AA4+, FxF
Heavy Shoota 15cm AP5+/AA5+, Left
Heavy Shoota 15cm AP5+/AA5+, Right
Notes: Reinforced Armour, 2DC, critical: bombs explode and it is destroyed.
Cost: either 150 or 175.
Isn't AA4+ some kind of red flag? I vaguely recall that was meant to be reserved for super-rare dedicated-aircraft-killing stuff according to conventional wisdom. Is it okay here because it's a bomber and can't intercept?
I want to be clear: I think you're heading in a good direction. My fundamental concern - and I know I keep harping on this - is that I can't see why anyone would take that instead of three Fighta-Bommas. All I really care about in list building is making as many options viable as possible - FBs (to my mind) have far too many advantages over your Bommer (armour-killing power, manoeuvrability, interception, etc).
If you've got some insights into why an army would replace some FBs with Bommers (i.e. in what situations they're 'better' or at least equal) that would be really helpful. I'm still learning the deeper subtleties of the game, so there are sometimes aspects that I overlook.
