I know and I understand your reasons, I just don't like them!!

I simply want to be able to play a list with all my big walking stomping stuff.
-Infantry as ground pounders
-Killa kans and Dreads
-Stompas and Super Stompas
-Gargants and Great Gargants

IF we are to think about small numbers of units back into v3, I would personally like to see Stompas make a return.

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I don't like the idea of changing the stats of Supa Stompa. The stats should be same as EA Rulebook list.

Would have no problem with a small increase in cost though. Always thought they were a touch undercosted in OGBM

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Great! I'm more than happy to help out with playtesting the lists! I've already done one battlereport so far.
Do you have any specific builds you want us to stresstest?

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Hi guys,

it seems you are looking at only minor tweaks to the lists, so my comments might be useless... but anyway:

My problem with the "new" list (compared to 2.2) is the lack of variety among the gargants. In the main list I understand why all ork weapons are broadly combined into categories like Big Shoota/Big Gun/Soopaguns etc. If I have a lot of different formations of different troops, it doesn't matter that they have the same weapon. If I have basivally just Gargants in small/medium/large (Super Stompa, Gargant, Great Gargant), then it gets boring to basically just have Soopaguns and Zzapguns. I feel that the Gattling gun is rather weak compared to the other choices, and that the Lobba is a bit awkward if you don't get the Big Kustom Job, as you will have mixed MW and normal BP. The selections of close-range weapons is fine, but for real shooting there needs to be more options.
Two solutions:
1. more weapon options, e.g.
-- a multishot MW (without TK) "Kustom-Giga-Blasta"
-- a multishot AT weapon like the imperial Turbolaser, for orks e.g. a Death arsenal
-- maybe an ignore cover weapon?
2. Change the Super Stompa to something else. The problems with SS were already mentioned, maybe you could change it to one of the Stompas from the Onslaught-list. Even better would be a lightly armed but faster Stompa. With every other Walker having 15 cm that might give some interesting variety. (It might sound as I just want an orkified Titan list. That is not the case, but that list has some very good ideas worth looking at. Warhounds with speed 15 cm would be quite a joke...)
By the way, I don't think raising the price of the SS is a solution: The SS fills the niche between squishy infantry or small walkers, and the big Gargants. I feel it should be in the 200 - 350 pt. price range, with matching power level. If you want to focus on gargants without having ridiculously low activations, you basically need a Gargant-like model in the price range of a normal infantry formation, not another expensive "almost-full-Gargant".

Other units:
I agree to bring back the stompas. Better yet, instead add Mega dreads, maybe even just the Dread-mob formation from the onslaught list. However, while I think Stompas are overpriced, Mega dreads might be too good for their price (in the onslaught list I would also prefer to raise them to 60 points. They are not that much worse than stompas, and in the basic formation 1 Mega dread for 50 pt. is equivalent to 1 Dreadnaught and 1 Killa kan for 60 pt.) In the end, I am not sure whether I personally like the splitting of the old list into one "small walker" and one "large walker" list, so my wish for Stompas might just be nostalgia...
Also, it could be cool to actually have Meks in the list as a real unit... e.g. as footslogging upgrade for the loota mob (instead of nobs), lets say a MW FF 5+, Leader, Invulnerable save. (although that is just far-fetched wishlisting)

I understand that such changes would require quite a bit of playtesting, and go beyond minor tweaks. But you wanted to hear suggestions
For me, personally, the similarity of Super Stompa and the Gargants, as well as the lack of fancy (shooty) weapons, is a crucial issue. This has so far killed all my attempts at starting a Gargant mob, as often the resulting lists feel not that different from a standard ork army (without the 1/3 point limitation on gargants and with reduced number of available units).
The "other units" is just minor wishlisting and is not crucial for a well-developed gargant list.

I am just out of a game playing AOGBM vs. TSons (NHunt version) at 2 k points.

Was playing:

2x Gargants, one with Wyrdboy tower
1 Big Loota Warband
2x Loota Warbands

Vs.

1x the teleporting 9 Tsons formation
2x 6 Tsons + Rhinos
1x Doomwings
1x Firelord
1 x Warp palace
1x Silver towers

Game ended 1-0 for the TSons after turn 4, and approx. 1100 pts. in their favour vs. 700 for AOGBM

Firstly, I'd like to say that options for a 2k AOGBM list are very limited. Going into the game with less than 5 ground activations is a pretty terrible choice, and there not many options for 5 activations at 2k in the list.

2k armies are always a bt of a gamble, but here the army is lacking altogether in valid options. I am not too sure what can be done about it.

Furthermore the Kustom options are not very attractive. Especially the Big Kustom upgrades which are all pretty weak given the downside of giving up a weapon. The AA itself is token only, and really expensive for that matter, especially when compared to Imp. titans carapace lasers. With no access to the Blitz brigade, and combined with the need for ground activations, AA options in the list are really limited. In the game, the enemy Flyers really gave my orks objective holders a terrible time.

The game itself was won when on turn 4 the Tsons managed to use the warp palace to severaly injure the GArgant holding the two Chaos T&H objectives (doing 4 DC of dmg) with a crossfire, causing so many BMs the doomwings just broke it in the next activation. If any gargant is lost at 2k, the game is pretty much done.

The game was really interesting and enjoyable however, the list played a bit like a defensive chess opening, where the so very few activations had to be held back as much as possible to maximize damage from the Gargants. Their fire output can be really nice when sustaining/advancing. However the lack of SC in that game made that move very hazardous.

I'll be playing more games in the coming weeks with the list, but was wondering if anyone else encountered similar problems at 2k.

Edit: for the record this game had a sensible amount of roads, and Gargants love roads. I was able to threaten the enemy blitz with a gargant, a gamble that would have paid off if it were not for the warp palace shots.

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I am a massive fan of Stompas, both in terms of modelling and also their fluff - however I am forced to agree that they aren't really needed in this list.
The 'slow stompy stuff' should and will always be the WEs. The support stuff should compliment these units. In addition, I think you'd find them competing for slots with loota warbands, flyers and maybe even Supa Stompas. In each case I think the alternatives are a better choice. Just my opinion, obviously.




Agreed.




Agreed. Was discussing this with Jon before BWW recently. The concensus was that they are marginally better than a Supa Stompa - but substantially more points, and much worse than a great Gargant, although not that many less points.
I've no desire to change their cost - 650pts has been long established now and that's not a road I'm giong to go down. Do think they need something to make them more viable though. (Spitballing hat on) Maybe an extra D3 shields? Not a game changer but would make them slightly more durable without changing their weapons or cost (both bigger changes IMO), while also matching the 'Mad Mek' theme of the list.




Based on my recent games (I'll post more on these shortly), not sure I agree here.
Don't forget that if you're going down this road, you're going to start taking hits on your activation count. In addition, taking a Gargant gives you support slots to take other units, whereas any Stompa formation is actually using a support slot up.

You're absolutely right that two Supsa are pretty potent, but for 600+ points, they should be! I see this more of an issue that the Gargant is slightly under-par than the Supas being above par myself....





Not adverse to this. As an Ork player, I find the mostly BP weaponry a bit frustrating sometimes myself. Having to double to get anywhere (and to activate in the first place!) means I'm often not doing much damage. Having improved access to other weaponry (which would still match E&Cs direction for the list) wouldn't hurt.
This is a bit of a major list composition change tho, so I'd be interested to hear what E&C thinks first. It is his list/supplement after all.





Disagree here - reasons started to be stated above. I don't think they are too cheap myself, although suggest we let playtests add more weight to the argument.





Quick thought: why not increase by 1, the amount of weapons that can be swapped?
So standard upgrade = swap 1-2 weapons for free.
Big upgrade = swap 1-2 weapons for 50pts each (personally I think it should be 25 each, but would suggest playtesting at the current points first)




Again, I'd like to see them in myself, but agree that keeping them out is the right thing to do. Sorry!


Ok, that's my lot for now - will try and type up some notes on my three games using the list at BWW shortly.

Cheers
Reedar

Hi LoM. Yea, I think you'll struggle with this list (and any titan list for that matter!) at 2k points. The way the composition of some lists work, as the points decrease, their effectiveness drops. Even standard Steel Legion start to suffer due to the costs of their main formations when you start playing smaller games.



I was thinking about this the other day. Personally I would like to see Transporta moved to the Standard kustom upgrade list. Personally I don't think it's worth paying 50pts AND giving up a weapon for. One or the other, but not both. And it makes sense to give up a weapon slot to fit 80 boyz PLUS 20 grotz into a gargant, for example.




Disagree on this one. Even if it is only token; putting a BM on someone who is air assaulting you AND denying them the BM advantage when it comes to resolution is almost worth the points alone IMO. Besides, MW5+ AA is not too shabby at all!


Cheers
Reedar

How settled are the Kustom Upgrades for OGBM v3.05?

Am looking at the models I have and working out how best to configure them, given that I am going to have to rip off arms from already painted models. (Have got quite a few with standard Soopa Gun + Twin Soopa + Lifta Droppa, but very few Gatling Kannon + Mega Choppa + Supa ZZap etc).

If I wanted advice on weapon combinations under v3.05, should I ask here (or rather in a separate thread in Net EA Ork Developmental section to avoid cluttering up this thread), or in Tactics section?

Cheers

James

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Hey WI,

This thread is for the Albert Orkstein gargant list for E&Cs supplement, as opposed to OGBM.

I'd suggest if you wanted your models to be WYSIWYG for actual combos available for the NetEA list you use a different thread mate. I'd hate to be responsible for you carving up you models and then something changing in this list!

Cheers
Reedar

Hi Reedar

What are the differences between Albert Orkstein gargant list and Net EA list? I had thought they were one and the same.

Thanks

James

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My thought is that I'd aim for a points cost adjustment first, rather than upping the quality of the Gargant to meet the context requirements of this list.

The 650 points may be fine for a list like Ghazgul's Horde, where there are loads of cheap activations available to balance against the Gargant, but if the requirement to use Gargants in this list creating an activation pressure that needs an outlet, then I'd be tempted to address that end of things, rather than upping the quality of the basic gargants. Maybe 600 or even 550pts would work better in the context of this list.

Specifically adding shields I'm not sure would be workable, as the problem with this list (in my experience) is gargants being slow & having to activate early in the turn, leading to them not getting many good targets during each turn. Extra speed (stat change) or extra activations (via a points cost drop) would address that deficiency most directly?

It wouldn't be the end of the world to go with more powerful weapons, of course, ala the EUK Titan list style. It works, even if it does create inconsistencies.


I'd be happy to trust your discretion here.
I think the current weapon set is relatively balanced, which means opening up a bit more would probably not break things totally.


That could work I think.


I agree on that, some lists will just struggle at 2k (too few formations, all too expensive), in the opposite way that other lists start to struggle at 10k (too many cheap light activations, none able to take a punch and keep fighting).


No objection.


It could go up to 2x MW5+ AA if the single shot is failing too often? I've never used it, myself, just taken the air assaults on the nose instead.


At this time they are the same. If Reedar wants to take over the NetEA list too, then they can remain the same too.

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Thanks. I had thought they were the same so got a bit confused. Thanks for clarifying.

Generally I prefer to adjust points costs rather unit stats. That comes from playing Mongoose's B5 ACTA where basic Minbari Sharlin cruiser had 4 different unit stats depending on which version of basic ruleset you were using, and whether tournament or friendly list. Urrgghh!!!!

So I would lean to small points cost deduction and/or increased free Kustom Upgrades (1-2 free upgrades sounds great).

One question on Kustom/ Big Kustom upgrades. Should the non weapon upgrades take up a weapon slot? Given the GW Great Gargants and Gargants models don't have too much weapon variety. Certainly far less variety than Beatleback. Tweaking this might strengthen Gargants without needing big changes in points costs / unit stats.

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I'm all in favour of this. I agree with all your points.



Maybe a 550 Gargant would solve many of the 2k issues.




I am in favour of such a change. Or 1d3 shots (more orky).

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550p Gargant sounds like a good idea!

1D3 shots for wyrdboy tower sounds cool and fluffy too!

Will be playing a game next week with this list hopefully!

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So over the weekend I picked up some models that will allow me to add Great Gargants to my currently Gargant Only bigmob, so that'll help testing.

We really need to organise the way the Great Gargants weapons are laid out better. the current way says they come with "2x Twin Soopaguns (6bp total)" or "1 Soopagun (2bp total) and 1 Lifta Droppa" when in fact, the weapon loadout should be "1 Soopagun, 1-2 Twin Soopaguns, 0-1 Lifta Droppa"

As a sidenote, Great Gargants seem less customisable than regular gargants. for one, they can only exchange for the (slightly improved) Zzapp gun, with no "Mega Choppa" default option. In addition, since their Twin Soopaguns are better than regular Soopaguns on Gargants, their weapon changes cant be of equal value (if trading 2BP for a Zzapp Gun is a fair deal, trading 3BP for the same gun is less so)
Not sure how to fix this, but increasing the number of slotless options would help i imagine, and giving them access to a free Choppa/or Snappa option as built in might do too (or if we increase access to the free slots may also suffice)

I'd like to see a bit better quality shooting available, especially something with a decent AT value. Given the orkish tendency to be doubling forwards, and the apparent reliance on BP weaponry, the current AT values are pretty poor, and I think in some places, the stats could do with an increase in firepower (or perhaps the ability to ignore the -1 for doubling? orky firepower is of the "fill the area with lots of bullets" philosophy, which doesnt seem like it would degrade much with jostling about brought on from fast movement. maybe make that an upgrade option)

Weaponwise, I'd like to see some sort of cluster gun, like on the front of the Blasta Bomba (which is to say, a whole mess of guns strapped together) something with a better AT value, and a random quantity of shots. I'd also like to see some sort of flame weapon (which is, a short range BP weapon with IC that provides extra IC firefight attacks)

in the "probably too difficult to organise" options, I'd kinda like to see a weapon that can keep firing till it runs out of ammo. perhaps a "5d3+3 x Deff Arsenal, 45cm range AP5+AT5+ one shot" sort of deal, so you get a finite but random number of shots. of course, this leads to a more "tactical" playstyle than the orks would normally evince, since you'll know how many shots you can use at any given time. ormaybe something that fires any number of d6 shots per turn, but it runs out of ammo permanently if you roll a 6 on your first dice, or a 5+ on your second, etc, though that could have serious balance issues, given on a perfect rollset, 21 shots (5,4,3,2,1,6)
Maybe also the ability for Great Gargants (and presumably Mega Gargants) to be inspiring if there are orks on foot fighting in the combat (they are, after all, representations of their gods)

I'd like to see more access to upgrades.
2 free kustoms and 2 bigs. I don't think that a second Gattling Kannon in any way is worth 50 points more than the first.

other upgrade ideas:
move the more shields to the bigs, but have them not lose a weapon slot.
maybe add a big upgrade to increase the DC by 1.
maybe even have a Big upgrade that provides an extra weapon slot.
a character upgrade that lets you reroll random shot numbers (grot ammo loaders)
a character upgrade that allows you to repair a DC on a 6+ (mad meks)
maybe a slotless upgrade that allows the gargant to ignore the -1 from doubling (gyroscopes are orky!)
divorce the speed and transport boosts from each other, and make both slotless free upgrades (or make it so that speed is a slotless free upgrade, transport is a slotted upgrade but comes with the speed aswell)

cheapening the base Gargant price would be a good idea, and 1d3 shots from the weirdboy tower would definitely increase my likelyhood of taking it

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