What ulric said! If it ain't broke don't fix it. I think the idea isn't bad, quite interesting, but orks work and it seems the general consensus is the fliers are what is the issue. I don't recommend changing an entire list for ONE formation type. You're going to set things back to experimental for no good reason.

Why not just impose a restriction on FBs. The 1/4th idea is ok but how about just limiting FB formations to something like 0-1 per 1000 or 1500 points. You can still play with them but you can't spam them, which seems to be one of the main issues. I wouldn't recommend point changes as that is going to mess with current/stable lists players already have.

I don't understand how this FB spam is suddenly a problem, and that a 65% win ratio army is such a threat to game balance as to justify ruining peoples builds.

Especially when compared to the responses I got when trying to adjust an army that is more broken in the exact same ways where solving that problem would also bring marine armies into the generally accepted "33% aircraft/allies" fold (while also largely solving the bemoaned singleton warhound prevalence)

I guess the ork delegation just doesn't have the same quality of lobbyists as the marine caucus.

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Can't help you there - I've literally never seen a Steel Legion army. The only Guard I've played against are DKoK, who usually bring several Heavy AA/Hydra platforms.

In the last 6 months, I reckon 80% of the games I've played or seen (which sadly hasn't been all that many, our scene is small) have featured Thunderhawk + Terminator heavy armies. They usually bring ~3 Hunters.

My Ghaz list has 1-2 Flakwagons in every ground formation, almost entirely to put blast markers on incoming Air Assaults.

Never did make it in front of a 'real' keyboard, so knocking this post out on the train while en route to ITB. excuse any typos etc...

Ok, from the top I guess.





I'm largely in agreement with most of the above. The only one I wouldn't personally make is the removal of the Uge option on Fortresses. As a unit that is generally seen as underpowered unless taken in large quantities, I've got no qualms about them as-is. Mintroll has had success with them in the past, but they are by no means unbeatable...


I don't think the change to the air allocation in the speed freak list is a particular problem. As Jon has already mentioned, if you do want to run a list needs to be heavy on Fightas (e.g to provide some decent AT capability) then you can still take 5 formations under the revised quota.

Ironically this change has greater impact on my own personal Speed Freak build, which uses 4 x Fightas and 2 x Landas. Under these changes I now have to drop 1 set of Fightas and a Landa.
Not a major problem though as it simply means I have more units on the ground; never a bad thing.

In addition, you want to use 1k of Orky planes? Ghaz list still provides this option, as others have pointed out.


Onto the general Fighta discussion.


I'm in agreement with the general 'it ain't broke so don't fix it' camp when it comes to the game mechanic side of things.
Orks can't reliably activate for the majority of the activation options, so changing the initiative, even just for a single formation type, is a non-starter IMO.
Taking one of the few things Orks can reliably do and making it harder seems wrong to me...

Don't get me wrong, I'd gladly swap an initiative of 3+/1+ for a flat 2+ any day of the week. (5 Fightas on CAP on a 2+? Thank you very much.) but that doesn't encourage the right (fluff) style of play. Leave as is on this topic...




However, on the unit stats side of things, I DO think they could do with some tweaks.

Cost. 50pts per model is about right. But IMO the base cost of the unit should be 175pts.

Fire arcs. Firing rockets out the tail pipe after you've gone past? I don't care how erratic Orks are meant to be, that is just too good in my book. I think changing the rockets to a forward (not fixed forward) arc is a good middle ground could one day be considered.

The above is just IMO obviously. And I say this as someone who has played ONLY Orks at every event I have attended for the last 5-6 years, have taken Fightas to every single event IIRC, and I love my Fightas and don't want them to change...

Cheers
Reedar

I agree that fxf fir the rockets and base cost of 175 would do the trick.

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My only opinion on the Initiative topic is that it's a bit weird that Kults of Speed (or indeed the entire Speed Freeks force) are really reluctant to go fast.

"'Ere we go, 'ere we go, 'ere we... Woah! Easy, driver! Steady on!"

I thought that I'd mention the Feral Orks change.

Ferals
Orkeosaurus – Add to critical notes “and takes an additional point of damage”[/quote]

As a Feral Ork player, I think this goes too far. The Orkeosaurus should have either the critical note above OR the critical note it currently has in the army list, but NOT both. To be honest I think that “...and takes an additional point of damage” should be added to the current critical notes in the list and "If contacting impassable terrain the Orkeosaurus is killed" should be deleted.

While I'm not the first person to push for this, I would like to renew the call for the "Walker" ability to be given to Squiggoths and Orkeosaurus. Due to the lack of "Walker" ability for Squiggoths (LV), Orkeosaurus', and Boarboyz (INF), the Ferals are forced out into open terrain to the joy of their "Sustaining" opponents. I have lost a fair number of Boarboyz and Squiggoths to difficult terrain tests. This results in movements that are very restricted, predictable and a help to the opposing player. SM Dreadnoughts, I.G. Ragnarok tanks and White Scars SM bikers (??!) have the "Walker" ability - but large animals with four legs don't?? I'm not saying the stats of those SM/IG units should be changed, but common sense would dictate that those Feral Ork units should have the same ability.

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"Live off the land. Go to find war. Kill wot comes close. The old ways are best." - Grodd, Ork Snakebite Runtherd

Yes, "walker" seems like it should be given to thoose units. A small change that wont in any way make the list much stronger. Can't really see the problem with implementing it...

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I agree mordoten, it shouldn't cause any problems.

As for the Critical notes on the Orkeosaurus, I found the critical notes for the Chaos Banelord Titan and the Khorne Lord of Battles:

"Critical Hit Effect: Immediately moves 3D6cm in a random direction. If this move takes the Banelord into impassable terrain or another unit it stops when it
contacts the obstruction and suffers an extra point of damage. Any units run over or into take a hit on a D6 roll of 4+."

This keeps the random movement and adds the "additional point of damage" that Tiny-Tim proposed. I think this should be the Orkeosaurus' official critical hit effect. This would bring it into line with all of the other WEs who have random movement crits and are not destroyed when contacting impassible terrain - such as the Subjugator, Questor, Feral, Warhound and Banelord titans and the Lord of Battles.

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"Live off the land. Go to find war. Kill wot comes close. The old ways are best." - Grodd, Ork Snakebite Runtherd

Bringing the Orkeosaurus crit inline with the warhound (1 point of damage, stumble d6 and take another point if it stumbles into something it can't move through/over) would seem a little fairer for a WE its size and cost.

I'd be fine on the walker too, so long as the steam gargant got some fire arcs.

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Being able to shoot in a 360 degree arc has come in very handy in my games but, I agree with Dave. The crudely designed and constructed Steam Gargants should have fire arcs just like the vast majority of other WEs.

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"Live off the land. Go to find war. Kill wot comes close. The old ways are best." - Grodd, Ork Snakebite Runtherd

Walker for the Squiggoth and Orkeosaurus absolutely makes sense to me, as does fire arcs for the Steam Gargant.

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+1 Agreed!!

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Will the changes be implemented some time soon?

The Steam Gargants should definitely have fire arcs, as all other titans do. There's no way they should be able sustain fire behind them or twist to fire in all directions like might be appropriate for an Eldar titan.

Orkeosauruses not having walker is rather limiting for them, but I think they should stay not having it. They're balanced and costed for as they are now - if they were to have walker they'd be in cover a lot more and be harder to kill so I'd expect them to cost at least 25 points more, possibly 50.

They should have the 'takes an extra point of damage' added to their critical as well as the random movement, as the Epic-UK Orkerosauruses have and has now happened to all the other such units Warhound, Questor, Subjugator, ect. They're very tough and it's frustrating to get a rare critical and not get much from it. I lost a game against Feral Orks today - I faced 5 Orkeosaurus and attacked them quite a bit, but only killed one, with no damage to any of the others.

I am not proposing to give Walker to Orkeosaurus anytime soon. In Saturday's tournament I had one game where the first five difficult terrain tests I took resulted in four fails.....

Time scale on the current proposed changes is some time in the next 6 months before the update of the compendium.

Playtests to show any reasons why these should not be added.

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