why not just make it so the reinforced boilers remove 1 test?

so if you push harder on a single with a reinforced boiler, you don't need to test, on a double you test once, on a march twice, as opposed to 1,2,3 tests respectively

I'd say a point of damage AND a crit would be more than enough of a downside to the push em 'arder ladz rule

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Yes, interesting idea.

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If given it some more thought during the day and the idea grows on me. I like the idea of a mechanic (reinforced boilers upgrade) providing less die rolls and book-keeping. It also doesn't make the "push them arder ladz" rule too good because to just advance (and get a 20cm rule with no roll neccecary) with a gargant you must first make an initiative roll on 3+, so it's a little of a gamble. Your better of just doubling without using the extra push to be sure you'll get to make the move.

On the other hand a auto crit (no point, just a fire) has been suggested which is good too. Then the boilers need to go completly because they are redundant. A Water tower upgrade that gives +1 on the roll or a reroll could be put in instead.

edit: auto crit would be per activation, not per move. marching 60cm should not cause 3 fires...

i like both ideas! damn it!

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Just to understand, if I triple then I make up to three tests but once I get a roll on the critical hit then that's it, right? Coupled with the boilers removing one test required to be made sounds pretty good actually. Low book keeping, you can roll all at once (cause once you've got a fire it doesn't matter as you'll not get a second, or third!), and as you say, this is hard ti make on a single si if you pass the init 3+ with a boiler then good for you!

edit: I want to point out that if correct, this is very similar to the tried and true mechanic in SW:A concerning critical hits (which is generally well liked). You may roll 5 (red) dice and they all come up with a critical but only one critical effect occurs regardless of number of dice > 1.

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Well, no... I think.

The first suggestion is this. You roll for every move done in your activation. For every 1 you roll you get a fire (ni point of damage, just a fire) just like the critical hit of Gargants. Boilers would let you skip the test for the first move. So for a double you would make 1 test and for a march you would make 2 tests. Each 1 you roll would cause a fire (so up to 2 fires on a march action).

The second suggestion is that regardless of if you advance, double or march but choose to make 1,2 or 3 moves with the extra 5cm you'll get a automatic fire. Only one fire regardless of how many moves with the extra cm:s you do. This would make the reinforced boilers redundant since theres no roll involved.
Instead we could in this case change the boilers to a upgrade called "water tower" or "water grotz" etc thast would give you +1 on the exstingushing (can't spell that) roll making it impossible for the fires to spread and making it a little easier to put it out.

Maybe where saying the same thing... I'm confused.

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Yeah we're almost saying the same thing. It's basically saying #1 above but with only up to a single critical effect I'm down with fire per failure too. The boilers not being a reroll but canceling the first test is better and less rolling. Basically, you should be able then to double but if only taking +5cm once and on the 2nd segment, then it's a single roll, no? If you've paid for boilers then it is 0 rolls. If instead you took a +5cm on BOTH segments then yeah it's 2 rolls and the boiler would remove the first roll. Basically what you said but without the boiler only working on the first segment versus first pushed harder segment. Subtle but I think we're saying the same thing pertty much

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well as the AC mordoten, it's your call

I keep having ideas for stuff and they're not likely to stop! I'm happy to go with whatever you like, but I think a few more games with the current mechanic might be in order, in my last game for example, I nearly always pushed harder and had a stompa's head blow off first move of the game and a great gargant catch fire shortly after..... maybe I was being too aggressive

I'm down for more OGBM playtests but not for a few weeks (playing the IF tonight and Warmaster next week)

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I do not play Gargants so take my opinion as you like but a no risk 20 cm engage move is still good.
And there is a lot of dice for moving that will not end up doing anything. Lets assume that double move is the standard, with boilers it would only mean one die and if you roll a 1 you still get a save 1/3 of the time so you would get a DC every third game or so...
With my excellent idea of getting a fire no matter what it would be less dice thrown during the move (but some more to put out the fire...)

I suggested a point of damage as well as a fire/crit.... so you get the double whammy

20cm engage move is good and it's something the list needs IMO as currently you struggle mightily to get into engagements, certainly BTB is almost impossible.....

if we compare to the AMTL list we have

AMTL
better initiative across all the actions (sustain, advance, marshall etc)
better shooting capability (plasma cannons, TLDs all with great hit rolls)
indirect fire (CLP + AML/Quake cannon)
faster risk-free move on the most common titans (30cm and 20cm versus 15cm across the board)
rechargeable shields
better FF options (melta cannon and laser burner)

OGBM
more stock DC
more shields initially
better support units (lootas and planes are both good choices)
wider range of good upgrades
free supreme commander

I think the AMTL is a stronger list based on those comparisons (feel free to point out my mistakes) so I wouldn't get too hung up on the nitty gritty of gargants moving the same speed as a reaver titan myself....

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Oh, perhaps I sounded to harsh in the beginning
I agree on all of this. I also fell that the AMTL is better then the Gargant list in most ways. The list as it is now probably need a small boost rather then a nerf. I want them to be able to assault 20 cm, they need it as you say. (But I'm not so sure they need +15 cm when doing tripples)
My "problem" with push em arder is:
1.With the current ruling, when the whole army basically got an almost risk free +5 cm move it does not feel right. Gargants is slower then say Reavers in all other lists, so it should be slower here also in general . I can accept that they are faster on occasions or if there is a drawback that makes people think before they use the extra move. (Like the ones we are discussing)
2. You already roll a lot of dice with this list (D3 attacks etc) It is fun and orky but it should not be done to the extreme
3. In the current wording boilers is so good that it is almost an auto include for me

They should not get an auto DC loss, that is a big drawback. (Not 100% sure but wouldn't that give them a BM, not so good when engaging)
That said I do not think any of the suggestions is to bad or OP. And I do not think that the current ruling makes them OP either. I just thought that the rule could use some tweaking

So I have no problem with them getting any of the suggestions.
The "only" thing that I am worried about is them being boring to play against if they do a turtle formation and goes for a 4th turn draw and win on points...

We will do 2-3 more battle reports before chaning anything with the "push them..." rule and/or boilers upgrade.
Also gives me some more time to think about all the freat suggestions! Thank you so much for the effort and good ideas guys! I really appreciate it! Feels like the list is getting somewhere now.

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Good question – if it was DC lost from a crit you would take the BM. If it is lost from a list specific special rule, the list could specify either way (and should say very clearly!).

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My perspective is the same as uvenlord, ie it would feel a bit strange if players were using the +5 for practically every move, it would somehow feel better (to me!) if it were more of an occasional ability, particularly for engagements. That can be done either by making the penalty quite harsh to the point where you would very rarely see a 60cm march (eg auto DC and auto crit, no BM) or by restricting when it can be used.

Hmm think I'm repeating myself now, sorry.

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Had another game with the list today. Opponent was UvenLords Space Wolves. We played with "flakka dakka" upgrade (D3+1 6+ AA shots with 30cm range) instead of "Wyrdboy tower" and the "push em harder ladz" rule as it stands right now.

Heres the link: viewtopic.php?f=84&t=31147&p=588875#p588875

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Ok guys. After having 2 battles with the list I've decided that a slight change to the "push em harder ladz" (henceforth called "pushem") rule is needed. I've been thinking alot about it and have 3 different versions of the mechanism in mind:

1. Keep as is (1 roll for each move that uses the rule, on a 1 the WE looses 1DC without recieving a BM) but take away the "reinforced boilers" upgrade.

PROS: Not changing the mechanic is good for consistency. Taking away the reinforced boilers upgrade makes it slightly more frightening.
CONS: A little boring perhaps. A potential for 3DC damage is kinda scary also.


2. Give the unit a automatic fire (like the crit damage) for every ACTIVATION that uses "pushem" (so only 1 fire no matter if you make 1, 2 or 3 moves using the pushem rule).

PROS: very neat simple and requiers very little book keeping.
CONS: Not much of a punishment really. It really only hurts if you roll a 1 on the extinguishing roll.

3. Give the unit a automatic fire (like the crit damage) for every MOVE that uses "pushem" (so 1 fire for advance, 2 fies for double and 3 fires for march if you use the "pushem" rule for every move). change the reinforced boilers upgrade into a "Water grotz" upgrade that give you +1 on every roll to extinguish fires.

PROS: Makes the Gargant player think twice about using the rule too much. Makes it high risk, high reward which feels very orky.
CONS: Harsh punishment. The potential of 3-6DC (if three 1ns are rolled on the extinguishing roll) of hurt is pretty nasty.

I would like your input on this before i decided. Might even do a poll actually. Please refrain from giving more suggestions of options. There will be a desicion made on 1 of theese 3 mechanics.

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