Interesting concept.
Remove Huge Fortress Mobs, because they are so good. Than give them shields so that a large Mob gets much better.

It took 10 years to get a player taking the list to extremes and instead of adapting the own army composition and tactics there are cries to curtail the list, so you don't have to adapt. Such a mob is expensive and you can beat it with the right weapons.

The same goes for flyers. I must admit the Ork flyers are cheap, but that's all that's good about them. If somebody wants to max out his 33% Titan/Flyer portion, so be it. They do not even have an advantage like Marines that have their Transportflyers in the main category, in contrast to everybody else. So SMs can have 4 times Marauders plus flying transport. And I for one am more concerned about 4 formations of Marauders than 6 formations of Ork Fighta/Bombers.

If Fortresses and Flyers proof to be a winner, the players should adapt and change their army composition, to counter them instead of changing the Ork army lists. Both can be countered, neither Fortresses nor Fightas are especially cheap for what they do. Every army has some feature that can be used to extremes, so have the Orks. And every extreme army works well until people adopt and than it looses big.

In our circle flyers have a steady up and down. Somebody starts using lots of flyers catching the others unaware, the others ramp up AA, the number of flyers will be reduced, the AA will settle at a lower level until ...

I'm voting against the shield option on Fortresses, because it makes them too good read a must take choice. Nothing is worse that an option you have to take, like SM players thinking they must play a Drop/Thunderhawk/Termie list or they can't win.

The point cost of the Fortresses is not really off. It's just that options like the Gorgon are too cheap, but that is not the Fortresses fault, but the curse of the early birth (read power creep).

So I wouldn't make changes in that direction.

T bolts and marauders come in 2s and activate on 2s. That's the big difference with them and ork flyers

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I played them only once. Moved the mob as one of the last. Kept the Boyz inside the Fortresses.
Sadly didn't have the initiative next turn, but didn't matter in the end as the combination of shields and saves let me survive the two enemy activations. They took something like 12 hits between the 2 salvos. 5 shields , can't remember how many saved, but importantly no kill.
They delivered their load and won high, despite the blast markers. The unit was later broken by a clipping assault, after the two fortresses were finished off. They wouldn't have been able to pull the first assault off, without shields.
For a hundred points you get an average of 4 wounds to the Fortresses. More importantly they ensure that you will survive the attack of at least one enemy formation (ordinary i.e. not 20 macro shots), if they don't crit.
Did the fact that a crit on a Thunderhawk kills all passengers ever stop people putting formations in Thunderhawks ?
On gun fortresses two Oddboyz may also reduce the number of BM received so that one more is able to shoot back. It also delays the breaking of the unit. For one there are less BM, but also (probably) less lost vehicles. If the three shields prevent the loss of one fortress that the difference of 6 regarding break point.
Even without Shields the Gunfortress gives a Leman Russ company a run for it's money. Or 2 and a half Scorpions are also not really cheap compared to Fortresses depending on opponent. Add 2 Oddboys and the Skorpions are all but useless and the Leman Russ as well. As the first salvo will be soaked up by the shields and there will be most likely no second one. (Yes you can construct cases in which case it isn't that bad, but I can construct cases which are even worse, so that cancels itself out)
If you say it has been play tested with the UK lists, this is IMHO not decisive. The NetEA and UK lists are (thankfully) different. And many problems occur only with certain styles of play and army lists. When reading in a different thread about an all Skorcha list as being a problem, I could only smile, because most players in our circle would have a field day against such a list. The same with spamming Fortresses. It very often depends on the much stressed meta whether something is a problem or not.
And while I accept that somebody is the opinion that in his circle the shields are needed, IMHO the shields will in our circle lead to an major increase of fortresses because of the high value of the shields.
And we shouldn't forget that some players are cleverer than we and find tactics which will abuse the shields in a way that we do not see yet.

Ork fliers have difficulties intercepting Marauders, because the shoot first wit 2 attacks each and Thunderbolts can pick off Ork F/Bs without them shooting back.

Thunderbolts have 4 to 6 ground attacks, F/Bs 3 or 6.
Thunderbolts have 4 AA attacks, F/Bs 3.

F/Bs have a wound more, but are difficult to put on Cap.

So what ? They are basically in the same league. And in the UK SM list they even cost the same.

I don't think you understand how the flying circus Ork list works, it has 5 formations of FBs (4,3,3,3,3 and a landa.
Orks CAPing on 3 is irrelevant, its the ground attacking and the numbers to fly through flak and BM units to breaking that makes it work

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Bad choice against opponents with AA, Better 5, 5, 3, 3.

Your view is very limited. The points cost of a formation is not made by how you use it, but how it can be used.
If you compare costs every capability/incapability counts. You use a certain tactic because of your capabilities and incapabilities. And some players just might want to use them to defend against enemy air assault or bombing runs, instead of doing your own air assault. It might even loose you the game having that squadron deliver another ping instead being on cap (or the other way round). Having a formation of 5 F/Bs on Cap against a Flying Eldar list has it's virtue. Ignoring the possibility to go on cap is like saying that Stormboys can't shoot is irrelevant for their points cost, because "I never shoot with them, I don't even use them to ping".

Depending on whether you go for an early assault or wait 'til the aa is removed and the starting amount of opponents AA the Air Assault will work or not. And of course depending on the target formation and on your opponents list, whether he puts someone in overwatch whether he has the possibility to rally the unit in between and I know not what.
I've got the feeling you don't know how to defend against air assaults like that.

I will not worry about 5 Squadrons F/B and a single Lander, if you make that 5(6 UK) Thunderbolts or 4 Marauders and 2 Thunderhawks, i will.

A friend of mine plays regularly with 5 formations of Falcons with 2 Firestorms in each. I use Steel Legions list with up to 12 Hydras. Even if you get the target formation, how many fliers will still be available in the next turn ? Trading 300 points for the target formation (I rarely have units that are more expensive) with 500+ points of flyers is ok in my book. Of course that might have been my BTS, but if you set 1000 points against my BTS it will most likely crumble anyway.

Flyers combined with Transport Flyers are always causing problems, especially if you have no aa.
Orks are not the best players of this game, neither by choice of Flyers nor the choice of troops that can be landed.
Before you start removing options from the Orks, start with the other armies. The only big advantage Ork flyers have, is that you can have formations with more than 3 flyers, making them good against aa units.
Not to talk about SM's where a Ping on the fleeing unit is not enough or the lone Commisars in his Leman Russ that can't be pinged away.

Basically it's meta and army composition again.
It makes a difference, if you play Space Marines with Thunderhawks and get the game turned on you, or Steel Legion with Hydras and every other unit on overwatch or Shooty Eldar rearranging aa screens on the go.
Not knowing how to handle them or being not willing to change your army composition is no reason to change the army list.

Just to note to say that I am keeping an eye (& two when I can manage it) on this thread.

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My view is not limited, its based on experience vs and watching the builds in question. A benefit of playing with a variety of groups, metas and builds. FBs CAPing is irrelevant as they never CAP in the list in question, so something they never do really is irrelevant in discussing how they perform.


I understand perfectly well how to defend against air assault like that as I've played against it many times.

Ork flyer have 2 massive advantages - activating on a 1 to do what they are best at and formations of more than 3. No other army has that. Plus in terms of list composition can pick 1000pts of air and still have large formations and sufficient ground activations

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Having just come up against a version of Jon's "flying circus" at Exeter tourney, I can confirm the unit stats are irrelevant - it's the mass out activating (automatic 1+ at that) which is its strength. If you build a list to take it on they its probably easy to beat, but against an all comers list its very strong. Jon even commented he had deliberately taken the speed freaks list as he felt the Gazkull version (with lander) is op.

Perhaps a little balance here:

I think Steve is saying that CAP is irrelevant with this particular army build, not that it is irrelevant in terms of the points cost of the unit. Clearly it has some non-zero value, and everything is situational. But we are discussing a putative "loophole" in the army and I understand that you have to consider how THIS list is used to win.

On the other hand, my initial thought was similar to brumbaer's when it comes to both of the topics under discussion (forts and air), in that just because someone comes along and wins a lot of games does not automatically mean it should be outlawed. One man's idea of what a list "should" look like is not going to be the same as another's. That would be open to interpretation, and certainly for orks a lot of variety can be justified. But sometimes it is right to restrict where it is a problem with balance, or fun for the players, and that is true regardless of whether the army does or does not fit within a particular theme.

In the case of the flying circus list, I don't mind particularly if someone wants to field lots of flyers, but I do have a problem if it performs "too strongly" compared to others' (ie removes or weakens the influence of skill). In this case, I believe it IS too strong, because of the two specific reasons mentioned, which have a large effect against tournament all-comers lists due to the specific way it is played. Basically you have a larger formation that takes out the flak, and smaller formations to place lots of blast markers and kill some stuff. Nobody is saying it is auto-win, but the win ratio is very strong and if the player who uses it thinks it is OP, it probably is.

For the fortresses, I don't see a demonstration that large formations are too big/cheap/powerful/whatever, nor that adding more than D3 shields is needed. There is nothing "wrong" with a list entirely composed of gun fortresses, and just because Simon won one tournament doesn't mean it is OP. Yet that win does add doubt that they are quite as underpowered as previously thought. I played against Simons list before the GT myself; I had no problem with it but at the same time thought it was competitive. It's worth saying that without the large mob, it didn't perform as well (I played against a version without it and could exploit its weakness).

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I'm not saying the Flying Circus isn't a good option, I just say it isn't an abuse and it is not worse than what others can field.

If you put 1000 points of Fighters against the 1000 Pts of the Flying Circus, it will do only so much, especially as you will often outreach the FBs and in addition can clip him when capping or intercepting reducing his ability to return fire. If you can basically neutralize 1000 Pts with 1000 Pts I do not see it as an abuse.

If the Ork player doesn't cap no matter voluntarily by not trying or involuntarily by failing, and allows me to land my Thunderhawk and capture his Blitz, or let my Marauders run wild on his Skorchas or whatever so be it.

When you play against Minervan and are not prepared to fight tanks, bad luck, the same goes for the Flying Circus, a drop list, an all skimmer list or Necrons or any other list that is "special". And yes some armies are better suited to provide for certain types of opponents.

Regarding "fun". I don't know how many players enjoy playing against a drop/Thunderhawk list, or an Eldar I move my Portal forward and charge my Warp Spiders through it list or a Necron list or any other of the armies, which give your opponent a big surprise. The surprise and the accompanying advantage grows old fast, because you will adapt to the lists. And I assume it will be the same with the Flying Circus.

I let it rest, I'm just repeating myself.

All the above are more enjoyable to play against than a static shooting list

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Interesting discussion!

I very much agree with the notion that a list having a single tournament win is not a good reason to review its balance - someone always has to win, right? If we nerfed every list that won a tournament...

I think one of the most important points in the debate about restricting Fighta-bomma sqwadrons is being overlooked to some extent: reducing the cap on aircraft in the Speed Freeks list is almost pointless unless a similar restriction is introduced to the Ghazghkull list. As Blip mentioned:



If restricting the number of Fighta-bomma sqwadrons is necessary, can it be done in a way that applies equally to both lists without additionally restricting the Ghazghkull list's ability to take Gargants? (Just changing the limit to 1/4 would make it impossible to run a Great Gargant at 3k, for example.)