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curating Slaves of Darkness & LatD playtest changes for 2022

 Post subject: curating Slaves of Darkness & LatD playtest changes for 2022
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2022 7:09 pm 
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OK, back in January we kicked this can down the road (see https://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd ... 82&t=34640). Now the can is sitting there in front of us again, and we had to decide if we like the can or not.

To reiterate, here are the changes that the Redux list introduced to LatD but did not make it into the Slaves of Darkness list.

Units
  • Replace Chaos Marine Aspiring Champion Autocannon with Heavy Weapons
  • Icon Bearer loses Invulnerable Save and Leader, dropping to +10 points
  • Hellfire Cannon down to CC6+
  • Lord of Battle drops to FF5+, loses Invulnerable save, gets +1 to engage
  • Daemon Assault Engine gets +1 to engage
  • Plague Tower goes to 20cm, can't march
  • Contagion Tower can't march
  • Daemon Knight Castigator Cannon gets Disrupt and Indirect (likely typos)
  • Doomwing Flame Cannon goes to 30cm range
  • Keeper of Secrets drops to 15cm move
  • Daemonettes drop to 15cm move
  • Flamers drop to FF4+ and gain FF extra attack
  • Plague Zombies went from 3+2d6 to 3d6

With regards to each of these changes, do you it is:

A) intentional
B) the result of newer LatD changes that happened after the Redux list was made
C) a typo

Additionally, what other things would you like to put up for playtesting this year?

The end goal here is to standardize the LatD and SoD lists with one another, stats-wise.

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 Post subject: Re: curating Slaves of Darkness playtest changes for 2022
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2022 8:26 pm 
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The Lord of Battle is in the World Eater list. All units should match the entries for those units in already approved lists.
Same with the Hellfire cannon.
Same with the Icon bearer.

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 Post subject: Re: curating Slaves of Darkness playtest changes for 2022
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2022 10:31 pm 
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Dave wrote:

With regards to these. Which do you think are:

A) intentional
B) the result of newer LatD changes that happened after the Redux list was made
C) a typo



They were things to test. MikeT, instead of adding to the list already tested changes, added anything that could be tested.

But most of them cannot go on without testing in all the other Chaos lists that use those units, be it aproved or developmental, as netEA goes by one unit-one stat, so we would need to get others subAC on it.

Still, some of them, like the changes in the Lord of Battles, i think they are typos.

For example:
IJW Wartrader wrote:
Note that the Plague Tower being 20cm in the Death Guard list is a typo, which I've fixed in the update that went up today.

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 Post subject: Re: curating Slaves of Darkness playtest changes for 2022
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2022 5:31 pm 
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The Daemon stats were definitely from earlier versions of the LatD/BL lists.

Most of the other changes list above were intentional as far as I can tell, but in my opinion most of them were unnecessary.

I would like to see the Tzeentch flyers stats changed and playtested across the relevant lists.

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 Post subject: Re: curating Slaves of Darkness playtest changes for 2022
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2022 6:56 pm 
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Dave wrote:
Units
  • Plague Tower goes to 20cm, can't march
  • Contagion Tower can't march
  • Plague Zombies went from 3+2d6 to 3d6

With regards to each of these changes, do you it is:

A) intentional
B) the result of newer LatD changes that happened after the Redux list was made
C) a typo

Plague Tower - as Abetillo said, as far as I'm aware Mike had gone back to 15 cm Speed for the Plague Tower but hadn't updated the PDF. It's definitely gone back to 15 cm in the Death Guard list. As much as I loved it at 20 cm, it wasn't a good game experience...

Contagion Towers - I suggest renaming them to Contagion Engines, partly because it's closer to their original name and partly to reduce potential confusion with the Plague Tower.

Plague Zombies - I think it's just the EpicUK LatD list that still uses 3d6.

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 Post subject: Re: curating Slaves of Darkness playtest changes for 2022
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2022 1:29 am 
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I like can.

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 Post subject: Re: curating Slaves of Darkness playtest changes for 2022
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2022 10:10 pm 
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OK, so how about this then as the playtest changes for SoD (all) and LatD (last 4):

  • Plague Zombies to 3+2d6 (to match LatD and Death Guard lists) (typo?)
  • Doomwing and Firelord Flamecannon goes to "15cm 2x AP4+/AT5+/AA6+ FxF, IC" (see below)
  • Drop Silver Towers to 250 (to match Red Corsairs)
  • Replace the Hell Knight with the Hell-Scourge stats and price (to match Emperor's Children)
  • Rename Contagion Tower to Contagion Engine

Dropping the following:
  • Replace Chaos Marine Aspiring Champion Autocannon with Heavy Weapons (old stats prior 2018 ECC changes)
  • Keeper of Secrets drops to 15cm move (old daemon stats)
  • Daemonettes drop to 15cm move (old daemon stats)
  • Flamers drop to FF4+ and gain FF extra attack (old daemon stats)
  • Daemon Knight Castigator Cannon gets Disrupt and Indirect (typo)
  • Plague Tower goes to 20cm, can't march (matching DG and keeping things simple)
  • Contagion Tower can't march (keeping things simple)
  • Lord of Battle drops to FF5+, loses Invulnerable save, gets +1 to engage (typo and keeping things simple)
  • Daemon Assault Engine gets +1 to engage (keeping things simple)
  • Icon Bearer loses Invulnerable Save and Leader, dropping to +10 points (current stats seem fine)
  • Hellfire Cannon down to CC6+ (typo)
  • Doomwing Flame Cannon goes to 30cm range (in lieu of more shots)

In SM/TL the Flame Cannon actually used the flame template, hitting everything under it on a 4+ and -1 to save. Rather than taking the EUK approach of making it a single shot at 30cm, I think it would be a better match to the legacy of the game to give it more shots. I think 2 is a good start, keeping the costs the same. However, doubling its AA value worries me hence why I dropped it down to a 6+.

Thoughts on this and the other 5 changes above?

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 Post subject: Re: curating Slaves of Darkness playtest changes for 2022
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2022 1:48 pm 
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Thing is that this list was active for only a year and a bit more, and last time MikeT was active with it, he wrote that he lost the version 0.4 of the list where the typos would go in and never showed it up, so it is bound to have issues and typos. After that he appeared once a year or so, so they were never fixed, neither the changes to Chaos in general added.

Dave wrote:
OK, so how about this then as the playtest changes for SoD (all) and LatD (last 4):

  • Replace Chaos Marine Aspiring Champion Heavy Weapons with Autocannon (it's stated like 5 marines and should be armed like 5 marines)
  • Plague Zombies to 3+2d6 (to match LatD and Death Guard lists)
  • Doomwing and Firelord Flamecannon goes to "15cm 2x AP4+/AT5+/AA6+ FxF, IC" (see below)
  • Drop Silver Towers to 250 (to match Red Corsairs)
  • Replace the Hell Knight with the Hell-Scourge stats and price (to match Emperor's Children)
  • Rename Contagion Tower to Contagion Engine


1. Sorry, but it is NOT stated that it is five Marines anywhere, and i have all the versions of Wraethu's official and original list since way before she added the background and have even checked with the Wayback Machine on the SG forums from 2004 and 2005. In fact, it mentions that the guy is accompanied by ''lesser minions of Chaos'' and that he left the Legion on probably personal reasons, maybe on orders to command them. No mention of his brothers or a retinue of them in the entire document or anywhere else. Also, if done this should happen too to Stigmatus, as same units, same stats.

This has been mentioned some times already and it seems to me that it is a misunderstanding like the AT18 and the 8mm, or that the equipment the cultists get in Stigmatus comes from adding Guard personnel even though neither Wraethu, Jervis or the document mention it and even say the opposite since the first addition of these parts in version 2.3 of the list in 2005.

If you want a justification of the stats, it could be like the Imperial Commander, which usually get a Psyker, a Servitor, and/or Ogryn bodyguard, which out of all of them save for the second could very well be with him (Ogryn is even listed as the best example of a Big Mutant in the list) added to the already powerful Aspiring Champion. The Heavy Weapons come from these guys, same as with the Demagogue. Another could simply be that they do not have the Chaos Squats/Dark Mechanicus support (and power to negotiate with them) they would have as a CSM Warband or Legion, even more in Redux where they do not even loot from the PDF and probably come from a Daemonworld of feudal one.


2. Yes. Unfortunately MikeT became inactive with the list just before these changes were discussed and added for netEA Stigmatus, but as the reason for them applies as much to the Redux than to Stigmatus i agree it should go.


3. Could be, but if less drastic. I do not really think they need such a big boost as double the ground firepower, even more comparing with Thbolts as they would step a bit on their toes and probably be better. If anything make it less than double and go with 2xAP5+/AT6+/AA6+ IC but there is no justification for it having two shots compared with other weapons as, for example, they go in second edition by the almost the same rules save that they do not ignore cover :o but have more armour penetration, compared with the Hellhound, so i think that 1xAP3+/AT4+ or AP2+/AT5+ is better.

I am more of the opinion that, at least on Stigmatus, Doomwings could go down to 125p. Yes, i know how it sounds at first, a flyer fm at 125p, but given what someone has to sacrifice in support options to take them they are hardly spammable, and if done, the force has SERIOUS drawbacks.
Still, i am not good with the idea that on Redux Doomwings are needed for AA. I think it would be way better that ground AA is a better option for that list as to not make Tzeentch pretty much mandatory as some here have had concerns about through the years. Not to get even remotely close to Feral Orks AA ground power level, but increase it nonetheless. To begin with +20 points and option to up to three instead of up to two (they are a horde and a Technical is as cheap as it can be).
On the other side the Altar has been underused since approval of the Stigmatus list and back then it was often used effectively in some interesting ways, which are now more powerful due to changes in Stigmatus, and even more in Redux.


4. Could go with 25 points less to 300. First as you know cross lists comparisons do not work and in that list it has to compete with some really powerful options, DC2 WE cheese and two out of thee base formations are shootier and better at that role by default. Both Stigmatus and Redux have nothing as such.
Second, 75 points drop is pretty much unheard for good reasons. Drop them 25 points if anything, but they aren't by far the most unpopular engine in both lists, more like average. Even more, it took 4 years for someone to say something about reducing their points in the Redux thread, no one said 75, and only one of them actually tested the list and wanted just to test them, at 300.
I think that the bigger issue here is that Questors/Subjugators, Plague Towers and Hellfire Cannons, while not auto-takes by far as i proved to Rug with data from games years ago (they were taken around third-half the games each), have a better performance and role per point than any other support option save for flyers. Adding 25 points to the first and maybe the second Titan would solve LOTS of internal balance issues the list has.


5. No. First of all, you ask to change the stats of a unit in a long standing list for one that had even less of a use and even less testing and it is very different. Why? Also, as you know, cross list comparisons hold no value.
Second, reading from the original list from 2004 and SM2, the Slaanesh Knights and Hell SCourges have not EC Hell Scourge stats and have a different role. The EC subAC seems to not have used the full role of it.
Third, those Knights are on the top six most used Engines, after Subjugators, HellfireC, Questors, Plague Towers, and Khorne Assault Engines in both netEA (Kyrt's battletracker data mainly) and UK.

Such a drastic change (the unit disappears so they would need a big amount of testing to begin with and those stats give it a completely different role and loses the two they have (Scout and harassing with bot shooting and Scout), and a new one that would conflict with the reason usually given against them by the way) would need a very very powerful reason.
I think that at least you should talk about point drops, or going for between four and six per fm like the EC list, instead.


6. Yes, for now, as I have yet to find out why the name change happened. All i know is that it has been that way since the very first day it split in the Marine and the rabble part of Chaos back in 2004 and Jervis was around and very active, so the change to Tower has to have had a very good reason.

=====

In my case, my main concern with both lists, which i have checked and as far as i know no one has wrote a thing about in the almost twenty years the list has been around, even though after going through a few dozen reports i found only one case, in 2005, of actually taking them (plus a few from me), is that no one takes extra cultist-mutants and i have checked back till 2004 when it was more common to see diversity, while they should be the core power of the forces.
Actually, there was two more cases, but they were just two more units in the whole force to fill the points so they do not count.

Other extras have been taken some time or other on any of the two lists, but these two ones ...

In this case there is a double issue: Daemons are a lot better and taken more than them (and more useful than on Marine lists), be it when they costed 25p, when they used the previous (Sacrifices) or the actual rules for Daemon Summoning so cultists-mutants became Daemon deliverers, and extra Cultists-mutants are not taken even when the player do not field a single daemon.

I say to, in both lists:

- Lower the Coven's cost to 175p AND (if not doing both they would become even bigger Daemon carriers) Lesser Daemons back to +20 (would work a lot better for Stigmatus than for Redux but be nice for them both).
This could be coupled with Land Transporters to +15p as they are spammed mostly when going with Daemon spam to help with the Daemon carrying, and would help with Chimeras in Stigmatus which haven't been taken much since approval in 2008. There has been always a discussion since 2005 about +10 or +15 for the LT but back then there wasn't a big of a focus on activations as now and the LT had gone to Transport 4 to 2 just some time before.
- Or lower the cost of each additional cultist to +10p (i know that objectively they do not cost so little but we do have other examples of needing stupidly cheap extras like for example SL Griffons) AND Lesser Daemons back to +20p.

Both options at once would be too much of an advantage, i think.

Also, i would like for both lists to change the Spawns to up to two units per Coven from only one. The reason? I want these guys to actually do something and change the way the Coven they are in acts, instead of being just a gimmick to make the BTS Fearless (and even with two as a deterrence to dangerous CC formations Big Mutants are better). They should be uncommon but they should do something relevant.

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