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LatD Redux change tracking

 Post subject: LatD Redux change tracking
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 7:10 pm 
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I'm looking to get a few more battle reports in for the Redux list in the coming months in order to get it approved. To that end, I'd like to note all the changes between the current list and the redux list and get some conversation going around them as some things have changed since MikeT forked the list 8 years ago. The end goal would be to put something forward for approval and sync the stats/prices between both the lists.

Remember, what's below is how the redux list changes the approved list.

Units
  • Replace Chaos Marine Aspiring Champion Autocannon with Heavy Weapons
  • Icon Bearer loses Invulnerable Save and Leader
  • Add Technical
  • Chaos Alter gets stat option (25cm, 5+RA)
  • Hellfire Cannon down to CC6+
  • Lord of Battle drops to FF5+, loses Invulnerable save, gets +1 to engage
  • Daemon Assault Engine gets +1 to engage
  • Plague Tower goes to 20cm, can't march
  • Contagion Tower can't march
  • Daemon Knight Castigator Cannon gets Disrupt and Indirect (likely typos)
  • Doomwing Flame Cannon goes to 30cm range
  • Keeper of Secrets drops to 15cm move
  • Daemonettes drop to 15cm move
  • Flamers drop to FF4+ and gain FF extra attack

List

  • Remove all IG units
  • Drop to strategy 1
  • Remove Factions special rule and all formations go to initiative 2+
  • Covens get mandatory Daemonic Pact, free lesser Daemon, and go to 225 points
  • Daemons drop to 15/50 points
  • Daemon Prince faction limit removed
  • Icon Bearer drops to +10 points
  • Technicals upgrade added
  • Plague Tower added as upgrade
  • Plague Zombies change from 3+2d6 to 3d6
  • go to 1:2 Coven:Support ratio
  • Daemon Assault Engines drop to 275 and gets +2@75 each option
  • Plague Towers go to 325 each, drop from 1-3x to 1-2x
  • Firelords go from 1-3@150 to 2@250 + 1@100

I'll hold off commenting for a bit to see where this goes. If I'm missing anything please mention it.

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 Post subject: Re: LatD Redux change tracking
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2022 10:59 am 
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I never got around to fielding the redux list (too many factions and other systems, not enough gaming time!), but I can at least comment on the units that are also in Death Guard.

Plague Towers
I tried these at 20 cm Speed in the DG list and it made them a bit too effective. Both due to being able to double and reliably put Disrupt Barrages into the enemy DZ in turn one, and due to making them a bit too effective as assault transports.

As far as I'm aware, MikeT had changed back to using them at 15 cm Speed as of 2017, but there hadn't been a new PDF.

See https://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd ... 07#p603907
kyussinchains wrote:
No it's back to 15cm, think 15cm is pretty settled on too....


https://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd ... 84#p619284
MikeT wrote:
Plague Tower was played with 15cm move both games. Plague Tower formation was engaged and broken (with the Tower itself reduced to 1 DC) turn 2 by teleporting terminators game 1, and was too slow to engage anything game 2 so ended up shooting skorcha formations.


https://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd ... 64#p634664 (and note the comment about Flamers being bought in line with other Chaos lists)
MikeT wrote:
Flamers are certainly a single 3+FF to bring them in line with other lists.
Plague Towers are currently being tested at 15cm rather than 20cm move. 15cm certainly makes them a less offensive unit/transport, but they seem to work OK like that alongside faster moving Altars and Khorne Daemonic assault transports.



Plague Zombie Formation Size
I think LatD still used 3d6 Zombies when Mike started the Redux list, the EpicUK LatD list still has 3d6. I strongly prefer 3+2d6, and it's now consistent with more lists (EpicUK Death Guard, NetEA LatD, NetEA wip Death Guard, NetEA wip Daemon Incursion).

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 Post subject: Re: LatD Redux change tracking
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2022 2:07 pm 
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Thanks, I'll comb through the Redux thread then at some point to see what else was being tested but not yet in the .3 PDF.

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 Post subject: Re: LatD Redux change tracking
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2022 8:43 pm 
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Firelord aircraft: The D3 BP of the Firestorm Bombs should be changed to a fixed 2 BP.

Plague Zombies: 2d6+3 works better than the 3d6. If the dice go south, three stands for 175 points is pointless. There should be a reliable minimum and I'm okay with having fewer maximum units to balance it out.

Slaanesh Daemons: Both greater and lesser should have a movement speed of 20cm. It fits the character of that mark and it would make them a more attractive option.

Those are my two cents for now

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 Post subject: Re: LatD Redux change tracking
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2022 10:10 pm 
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While 20cm plague towers are great to have, I don’t think you need an extra 5cm to make them “worth it”. The protection from harm for the passengers is enough. I’m not convinced the nurgle formations should be restricted from marching either.

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 Post subject: Re: LatD Redux change tracking
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2022 11:37 pm 
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Who is actually championing the list these days? I've lost track. It would be good to push forward with it. I'm vaguely aware there is intended to be an updated Epic UK LaTD list in a year or two for similar reasons and hopefully the two could be similar or the same.

uberChris wrote:
Firelord aircraft: The D3 BP of the Firestorm Bombs should be changed to a fixed 2 BP.

Why? I much, much prefer D3 personally - it's more random and chaotic, so suits the nature of chaos and Tzeentch in particular as the changer of ways.

The Lord of Battles has always been a poor choice for it's costs. Maybe the new 'Blood for the Blood God' special rule it has in the updated Epic UK World Eaters list could be added? Basically it gets the option of +15cm to an engage move so long as it moves into close combat (and with as many enemy as it possibly can). It also looses it's FF value when using this.

Quote:
Flamers drop to FF4+ and gain FF extra attack

Seems too powerful. Epic UK have dropped Flamers to a single FF3+ these days as after many many games they have been too powerful and too often taken over other types.


I think Plague Tower should be 15cm and maybe 300 as a unit but maybe 250 when bought as a formation upgrade. Most vehicles add speed with their transports but it doesn’t and it makes the formation very expensive. If you want it for the disrupt barrage the Contagion Engines can garrison and seem better for this and you should get a good discount for buying something as an expensive upgrade compared to it's cost as a separate formation. As is I don’t think I’d ever use a Plague Tower with infantry.

I’d suggest leaving the no march rule for the Death Guard list only. The two Nurgle units here are slow enough with 15cm already. It’s possible to take a couple of different all Nurgle formations in the Epic UK Red Corsairs list (not the Contagion Engines or Plague Towers so it’s not a direct comparison) and these are allowed to march in this army but the same units can’t in the Death Guard list.

Minor thing but please, please can we invent a better name than Technical for the AA tank? I gather it's a real world name for a light vehicle improvised to military use but it doesn't sound 40k grimdark or chaotic at all. It's not the kind of name GW would ever give a chaos unit. Look at the names GW has invented for newer chaos units - Maulerfiend, Hellbrute, Discordant, Desecrator, Rampager, etc. See the theme and how Technical is bland and doesn’t fit? Renaming the unit to be called a ‘Hell Storm’ or ‘Annihilator’ instead are my suggestions that I’ll throw in but anything chaosy sounding and not used before would be fine.


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 Post subject: Re: LatD Redux change tracking
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:49 pm 
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In cost and stats, the Firelord is essentially the Chaos version of the Imperial Marauder bomber. Most of the time, the Firelord's random BP bomb load will fail to match the Marauders fixed 6 BP (for a flight of two).

When we look at other randomly generated attack stats like the Nurgle Plague Tower's Plague Mortar from the LatD and Death Guard lists, as well as the latest Ork Gargant list's BP weapons, the lowest roll is still very useful (4 BP/two templates) to the unit in question. The random result takes nothing away from the unit's performance, unlike in the Firelord's case.

I fully accept that the LatD is a massive chaff army and that is a part of it's appeal, but it is the offensive punch of the Faction support formations which help to make up for the core formation's failings (the yin and the yang if you will).

I suggest we playtest giving the Firelord a fixed BP bomb load for the current point cost, or as a last resort, leave the random BP bomb load and reduce the point cost.

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 Post subject: Re: LatD Redux change tracking
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:30 pm 
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Bear in mind that this is just a discussion of the Redux list - any changes to units that are in other existing lists (notably the standard LatD list) is going to require creating a new uniquely-named variant of that unit.

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 Post subject: Re: LatD Redux change tracking
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 12:10 am 
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The goal here's to sync up all the units in the lists, not to create new list-specific units and not to introduce new changes at this point. Get the Redux approved and then head back and tweak stats. I don't want to invalidate the reports that we have by introducing new changes beyond anything we might change due to a sync of the stuff above.

Puts another way...

MikeT forked this list from LatD some 8 years back introducing some changes but LatD has changed since then. So changes fall into one of these four buckets:

A) Changes Redux intended to introduce (e.g. removing all IG units)
B) Changes Redux did not intend to introduce but because LatD changed and Redux didn't they occurred (e.g. Slaanesh daemons going back to 15cm move)
C) Unexplained changes (e.g. Lord of Battle dropping FF and Invulnerable)
D) Typos (e.g. Castigator having IC and Indirect)

So I guess I'm asking what goes in what bucket. B) is pretty easy to sort out, I think, but we need a consensus on where the rest fall.

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 Post subject: Re: LatD Redux change tracking
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 9:55 pm 
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It might be easier to change the unit stats to align with the approved versions. We can discuss stat changes after getting this list released.

I think the dropping the guard elements, going to Strat 1, removing the faction rule, adding technicals, and making covens take demonic pact by default were all intentional. I can't speak to the point changes; they could be intentional to make up for the loss of guard units or the list could be out of date.

My vote would be bring the unit stats inline with the other chaos lists but leave the list changes in place.


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 Post subject: Re: LatD Redux change tracking
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:20 am 
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+1 for Breadstick's proposal.

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 Post subject: Re: LatD Redux change tracking
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:20 pm 
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As person who plays LatD, I'm somewhat interested in any changes for the main LatD list that this would incur. I like the LatD list itself mind you. I assume that the intention is not to replace the main list.

Also if someone could change the plague zombies from 3+2d6 something sensible (such as 7+d6 or even 10) that would be great as I tried it and can tell that rolling 3 from 2d6 in very annoying.


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 Post subject: Re: LatD Redux change tracking
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:32 pm 
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LatD wouldn't be changing much, Hena. If anything it would just be stats.

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 Post subject: Re: LatD Redux change tracking
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:38 pm 
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+1 breadstick. Have been playing a fair amount of battles with a REDUX list of only Nurgle units - including Plague Towers (plural). I like it a lot. Bring the suggested unit-updates in to make it align with other lists and then let's playtest!

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 Post subject: Re: LatD Redux change tracking
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2022 10:06 pm 
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OK, that seems sensible enough but with the following caveats:

* I'll add the Altar alternative stats as well. They seem tame enough but more importantly I don't want to take it out if someone built and modeled something for it.
* If the Icon bearer is keeping Invulnerable and Leader they will stay at +25 points and not drop to +10.

Sound good? Anyone else have thoughts?

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