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Emperor's Children v4.0

 Post subject: Emperor's Children v4.0
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:39 pm 
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Alright fellow degenerates, time to playtest a new EC list. I have tried to accomplish two goals here: first, create a flavourful,* fun army list; second, staying as close as possible to an approved and balanced list (the BL) so that arriving at a playable and balanced list is as efficient as can be.

Notable changes:
This list is more closely aligned with the current Black Legion CSM list than previously. I have followed the core-support-elite structure of that list. Noise marines are not a core formation. You can still take plenty of them in the form of support formations and upgrades however. The army is plenty noisy. The armored company is still a support choice. Havocs are only an upgrade, not a stand-alone formation. So obviously this is not a carbon-copy of the current BL list.

The stalker AA tank is back! Stats are from Onyx's Iron Warriors V2 list so blame him :P

There are no battle titans in this list anymore. However, there are now three kinds of Slaanesh knights (two of which are small WEs) and a chaos Thunderhawk. Between the Slaanesh scout titans and these new additions, the EC should be well-equipped on the WE front. The T-hawks are in the WE section of the list, and the knights are limited to 0-1 formations (and expensive to boot) so hopefully that will provide balance.

Daemons are Slaanesh-only of course, but I've added the steed (basically a mounted daemonette, you get speed but are burdened with mounted) and the fiends are beasts with a different name.

Raptors, bikes, most of the characters, and chosen are ported from BL, rather than keeping unique EC units. I dropped the debaser (the defiler-thingy) as I couldn't find evidence that it exists anywhere in official canon (Lexicanum referenced a fan article only). The stalker accomplishes the AA role now anyway. The EC dreadnought, predator, and Land raider are still in there though. The dreadnought and land raider have heavier versions of the blastmaster. C'mon bring the noise!

That said, PLAYTEST PLAYTEST PLAYTEST. I want to make sure that the knight formation, limited 0-1 and expensive as it is, is not overpowered. That, and having multiple fearless formations roaming around on the table (i.e. lots of noise marines). Pact-wielding bikes in a T-hawk might also be a balance issue.

Please post here or PM me with any questions. "There are no stupid questions, only stupid people." Post battle reports in the appropriate forum and link/mention them here. I'm not going to say that someone's opinion is worth more than another's, but if you playtest and share your experiences with the list, your opinion will be worth more :) Playtests against NetEA approved lists are the most valuable. Unsubstantiated opinions are worth less. Or worthless. Ok, enough blah blah blah. Have at it.


(did I mention that playtesting is important? PLAYTESTING IS IMPORTANT!!!!)

*see what I did there, govnah?


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Last edited by captPiett on Fri Jan 03, 2014 10:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Emperor's Children v4.0
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:59 pm 
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Okay okay I'm just about to start basing my emp's children up..... get off my back okay?!?! Jeesh!!

I'll miss the defilers as to my mind, leggy scuttling crab-machines are quite slaanesh-y but hey ho!

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Last edited by kyussinchains on Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Emperor's Children v4.0
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:23 pm 
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Why no battle titans? That's a shame and I think a bad idea. There definitely are meant to be Slaanesh specific titans - there's an old Slaanesh Warlord Titan head. The battle claw and energy whip where seen on the pastel and black Slaanesh Titans back in the day in White Dwarf.

What's wrong with Slaanesh Defilers? I prefer the Stalker for AA than the Slaanesh Defiler taking that role, but I would like either a Slaanesh Defiler or just the regular Defiler in the list. I have some partially converted Slaanesh Defilers myself back in the UK.

Otherwise the list looks good.


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 Post subject: Re: Emperor's Children v4.0
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:40 pm 
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Just noticed you've added thawks..... that's a *big* add in the context of the list..... any explanation on why?

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 Post subject: Re: Emperor's Children v4.0
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:49 pm 
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kyussinchains wrote:
Just noticed you've added thawks..... that's a *big* add in the context of the list..... any explanation on why?

To give the EC a bit more of the light/speedy/in your face flavor.

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 Post subject: Re: Emperor's Children v4.0
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 7:10 pm 
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While that's a noble aim, air-assault with chaos termies and daemons is gonna be ludicrously potent..... hope there are some checks and balances on that so these dudes dont steal the marines air assault kings crown....

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 Post subject: Re: Emperor's Children v4.0
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:41 pm 
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Red Corsairs have access to Thunderhawks too. No one has complained about this.

I would rename the Noise Marines formation to "Kakophoni" :)

Dreadclaw upgrade mentions Chaos Dreadnoughts but no Emperors Children Dreadnought.

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 Post subject: Re: Emperor's Children v4.0
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:52 am 
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BlackLegion wrote:
Red Corsairs have access to Thunderhawks too. No one has complained about this.

I would rename the Noise Marines formation to "Kakophoni" :)
.


Our group has a complaint: they're 50 points more expensive than the good guy version and don't have ATSKNF :P If the opponent breathes on them hard, they break.

I had forgotten about the Kakophni... I was thinking of that as I just finished Angel Exterminatus.

On summoning FMs being too powerful in a T-Hawk: since the transported FM activates at the same time as the transporting WE, there's no opportunity to summon before the assault. So at best the daemons would come into play after the assault, if the transported FM survives. Whether or not the added resiliency and combat power is too powerful in subsequent turns should be revealed by playtesting. Since they don't have ATSKNF and access to a chaplain, a 4-unit FM of termies isn't too much of a concern. Again, if playtesting reveals that these FMs are sticking around too well due to summoning daemons, then it should be re-examined. Of course, part of what makes the SM air assault specialists is the ability to pick up the FMs and do it again somewhere else. Picking them up again means another turn that they wouldn't be using their summoning ability.

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 Post subject: Re: Emperor's Children v4.0
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 3:42 am 
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kyussinchains wrote:
Just noticed you've added thawks..... that's a *big* add in the context of the list..... any explanation on why?

Chaos Space Marines regularly use Thunderhawks Gunships (and Thunderhawk Transporters) just as Space Marines do. The traitor legions used them as do more recently renegade chapters. How do you think the CSMs get down to a planet?

The Red Corsairs list has had Thunderhawks in it for many years and it's been fine. My last game of real life epic was against a RC army with 3 Thunderhawks half and half with CSM and Khorne Berzerkers and a Harbringer and I won using my SMs. The odd one is really the BL list for not allowing Thunderhawks.

The Thunderhawk in the Red Corsairs list is costed more however, to account for the more deadly cargos in can carry. A Red Corsairs Thunderhawk costs 250 and it also takes up a support slot rather than being free in the air/titan 1/3. The Emperor's Children list really should adopt this costing and the taking up of a support slot.


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 Post subject: Re: Emperor's Children v4.0
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 4:03 am 
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A thought/question about using Thunderhawks in a chaos army:

Since chaos doesn't have ATSKNF, and Thunderhawks are 2 DC, if they just get shot at by AA, they are halfway to being broken. If that shot actually does damage, or if there is another AA shot from a different direction, then does that mean the Thunderhawk is broken, doesn't land, and doesn't drop off whatever is on board?

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 Post subject: Re: Emperor's Children v4.0
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 5:45 am 
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An aircraft only receives one blast marker for coming under fire during it's approach move, no matter how many times it is attacked on the way. It can then get another blast marker if it is attacked by different AA unit(s) during it's disengagement move.

Aircraft pick up blast markers that make them less likely to successfully activate the next time they test. They then clear all blasters before doing their action, so an aircraft moving onto the board will always have no blast markers. Airbourne aircraft can never be broken, it doesn't apply.

A Chaos Thunderhawk could loose a point of DC and have two blast markers on it during it's approach move. This doesn't prevent it from air assaulting. Once it lands then it becomes effected by blast markers as normal, so if you air assaulted with an empty Chaos Thunderhawk with two blast markers it would break as soon as it landed and not get to attack. When a WE has troops inside both numbers are added together to determine the blast markers needed to break them. So long as it has even a single passenger then it is ok to attack as the rules state they count as a combined formation for the duration of the air assault so the two blast markers would only break the aircraft after the assault.


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 Post subject: Re: Emperor's Children v4.0
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:08 pm 
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I was aware of the fluff about traitor thawks, just hope they don't overwhelm the theme of the list....as a relative newcomer to marines I think thawks are hands down the best unit in the list and always take at least two, more when I get them built and painted!

Also making them fearless is a serious shot in the arm too....guess playtesting will reveal all in due time

I'm basing and spraying emperor's children this very weekend, hope I can contribute soon :)

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 Post subject: Re: Emperor's Children v4.0
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:21 am 
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This is getting ridiculous. The EC Thunderhawk definitely shouldn't have fearless. Fearless should apply to the special infantry - Noise Marines, Terminators, ect. Vehicles like the Predator and Land Raider don't have Fearless and the EC Thunderhawk shouldn't have either.

The Red Corsairs Thunderhawk (250 and taking up a support slot) does fine without fearless. If the EC Thunderhawk is to have Fearless then it should cost 300 or so, but I very strongly believe it just needs to loose fearless.


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 Post subject: Re: Emperor's Children v4.0
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:04 am 
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No need to start with that tone Glyn

I would agree that I don't see that the thawks need Fearless

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 Post subject: Re: Emperor's Children v4.0
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:04 pm 
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GlynG wrote:
The Thunderhawk in the Red Corsairs list is costed more however, to account for the more deadly cargos in can carry. A Red Corsairs Thunderhawk costs 250 and it also takes up a support slot rather than being free in the air/titan 1/3. The Emperor's Children list really should adopt this costing and the taking up of a support slot.


What are you classifying as deadly cargo over the stock Marine list?

I've seen 0 Red Corsairs battle reports, so all I can go on is the 15 games or so the list has seen in our group. 250 points for a THawk is steep. I'd like to see why it should be that expensive before we go blindly touting it should mirror the RC.

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