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Black Legion Demons
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=25712		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Xenocidal Maniac [ Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:44 am ]
Post subject:  Black Legion Demons
Hello! New Chaos player here! I have yet to play my first game with them, but I've amassed a few models and I am hard at work painting them now.

Quick question for you guys - I'd like to incorporate demons into my list, just because I think it's cool and fluffy. From that standpoint, I'm painting up a couple of stands of each type to use for fun. But, from a gaming standpoint, looking at the stats, why wouldn't you just go with Tzeentch demons all the time? Two small arms attacks at 4+ seems pretty attractive to me, and the weaker armor can be mitigated by simply putting them toward the back of the formation. They seem way better than the other options!

I'm guessing I am missing something, though, so would love to hear thoughts from you veterans.
Author:  SpeakerToMachines [ Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Legion Demons
1) You'd typically want demons in front of the engaging formations, to absorb hits and be Expendable. You can lose all your demons without inflicting a single hit and still win an engagement on blast markers and outnumbering.

2) It can be desirable to use Beasts (with 20cm move and Infiltrate) to get into B2B contact ith enemy units to force them to use a poorer CC attack. Beasts can also effectively extend the engagement range of a formation, with their 40cm engagement move.
Author:  Chazrael [ Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Legion Demons
One other thing to remember. Formations can only summon daemons of their alignment so only Tzeentch formations can use Flamers, Horrors and Screamers

Cheer
Author:  Xenocidal Maniac [ Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Legion Demons
SpeakerToMachines wrote:
1) You'd typically want demons in front of the engaging formations, to absorb hits and be Expendable. You can lose all your demons without inflicting a single hit and still win an engagement on blast markers and outnumbering.

2) It can be desirable to use Beasts (with 20cm move and Infiltrate) to get into B2B contact ith enemy units to force them to use a poorer CC attack. Beasts can also effectively extend the engagement range of a formation, with their 40cm engagement move.


Ah! Yes! Thanks, I had forgotten that infiltrate granted a double charge move. Yes, you are right; a 40cm charge is really useful. I will definitely consider beasts, as well.

Chazrael - thanks! Being that what a formation is marked doesn't really affect anything other than the type of demons they can summon, I figured I would just mark them all Tzeentch!
Author:  kyussinchains [ Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Legion Demons
SpeakerToMachines wrote:
1) You'd typically want demons in front of the engaging formations, to absorb hits and be Expendable. You can lose all your demons without inflicting a single hit and still win an engagement on blast markers and outnumbering.


actually, summoned daemons count towards casualties inflicted in an engagement, they don't cause blast markers from being shot

from the NetEA compendium section 6.0 - common chaos special rules: (emphasis mine)

Summoned units count as part of the formation for all rules purposes as long
as they remain on the battlefield. Summoned units are Expendable, but they are
otherwise counted as normal units, and are included when working out if a
formation outnumbers an opponent in an assault or is broken by Blast
markers, etc. Note that Daemons that are killed in an assault do count
towards the number of units killed by the enemy when working out modifiers
for assault resolution.
Author:  SpeakerToMachines [ Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Legion Demons
My bad. Kyussinchains is of course correct.
Author:  novemberrain [ Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Legion Demons
Xenocidal Maniac - Sadly, you are pretty much right in that the Tzeentch daemons are significantly better than most of the others, most of the time. This is partly because FF tends to be better in the game than CC, but also because those armies that can summon daemons (chaos space marines, Lost and the Damned) tend to be weak in FF and strong in CC - meaning the Tzeentch daemons fill a whole in the list while the others don't.

Of course, you could always try out the legion themed lists (or my daemon world one) for a different take on daemons!
Author:  GlynG [ Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Legion Demons
Since Plaguebearers got toned down Flamers are probably now the best but there might be times when you'd want the others instead, plague bearers to make a small formation like 4 strong Terminators as tough as it can be, Daemonettes could be better against good close combat armies like Tyranids (as you can position yourself nearby and shoot then hit first when they charge) and Bloodletters against bad CC troops (most tanks, Tau, shooty Eldar ect).

Also the current playtest Black Legion list has made demons and greater demons a fair bit better as they were underpowered and underused before. The Daemonic Pact now adds on to your daemon pool, greater demons are now 50 points and you can sacrifice a champion to summon one while undivided formations can summon daemons from any formation for 2 summoning points or any greater demon for the same (I'm planning on running a 3k undivided list with 4 greater demons).
Author:  Legion 4 [ Fri Aug 09, 2013 3:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Legion Demons
Yes ... well ... every ghost/demon hunter worth his "salt" knows demons are expendable ... They don't die, they just go back to Hell and regroup ... >:D :gah
Author:  Xenocidal Maniac [ Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Legion Demons
November Rain - I *love* your Demon World list! I'm going to grind away and get my Black Legion army painted, and after that I plan to paint up the rest of the models on the sprue to make a Demon World army.

Not sure what my deal is, but every army, every game system, I've got to go infantry horde. The thought of having a horde of demons, cultists, and chaos marines on the table gives me a big nerd woody! :D

Glyn - Great points, thanks for the input! And thanks for pointing out the new playtest list. I've been using the list from the 2012 Compendium. I do think the new changes are cool.
Author:  novemberrain [ Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Legion Demons
Xenocidal Maniac wrote:
November Rain - I *love* your Demon World list! I'm going to grind away and get my Black Legion army painted, and after that I plan to paint up the rest of the models on the sprue to make a Demon World army.

Not sure what my deal is, but every army, every game system, I've got to go infantry horde. The thought of having a horde of demons, cultists, and chaos marines on the table gives me a big nerd woody! :D

Glyn - Great points, thanks for the input! And thanks for pointing out the new playtest list. I've been using the list from the 2012 Compendium. I do think the new changes are cool.


Haha! Thanks Maniac - that makes me happy. The list does still need a lot of work and playtesting - so give me a shout if you want.
Author:  Xenocidal Maniac [ Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Legion Demons
Sure! I would be happy to provide feedback once I start getting some games in with it.

One thing that I have thought would be a cool addition to the list is some kind of Titan level "mega demon"! Like some kind of DC 6-8 monster to represent a Legendary Greater Demon or perhaps even the incarnation of the respective Chaos gods themselves!

Mainly I just think it would be cool to have a HUGE demon model on the table! :)
Author:  frogbear [ Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Legion Demons
Class 5 Pacific Rim type yeah? ;)
Author:  novemberrain [ Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Legion Demons
Xenocidal Maniac wrote:
Sure! I would be happy to provide feedback once I start getting some games in with it.

One thing that I have thought would be a cool addition to the list is some kind of Titan level "mega demon"! Like some kind of DC 6-8 monster to represent a Legendary Greater Demon or perhaps even the incarnation of the respective Chaos gods themselves!

Mainly I just think it would be cool to have a HUGE demon model on the table! :)


We talked about doing something like this in the development thread (feel free to join in btw) but it never came to anything. The biggest thing atm would be a formation of 3 great unclean ones!
Author:  Commissar Holt [ Sat Oct 19, 2013 12:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Legion Demons
I have a demonically evil question:
Can demons swap their type when re-enter from the Warp?
Let's say I summon plaguebearers. Turn end, they go back (not slayed, not broken formation), then next turn some slaaneshi marines get bored and calls for the same lesser daemons within the pool, whose this time become daemonettes!
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