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LatD - Units
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=23835		 Page 1 of 5
Author:  Tiny-Tim [ Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:40 am ]
Post subject:  LatD - Units
This is a bit of a holding thread until the BL review is completed, but without starting long debates can I kindly hear what units people are having problems with in the LatD/Associated lists.

First up are:

    Khorne Daemon Assault Engines
    Tzeentch Firelords
    Tzeentch Doomwings
    + Contagion Towers
    + Altars
+ Covens

Please note, I still intend to look at the LatD army list make at some stage as well.
Author:  Profit [ Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: LatD - Units
Well, the reason I have yet to try out the assault engines is because, well, there seems to be a little to few of them to actually assault something...!
Author:  LordotMilk [ Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: LatD - Units
Sorry, didn't read the starting post well enough.
Author:  madd0ct0r [ Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: LatD - Units
this thread is of intrest to me, but I'm just going to watch for now.
Author:  frogbear [ Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: LatD - Units
The only thing i can think of for a review apart from what you have mentioned is a points review on the contagion towers - i feel they could drop 25 points.

Otherwise lets get on with the discussions. I have ideas for the Khorne Assault Engines... :)
Author:  Irisado [ Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: LatD - Units
For what it's worth, I think that looking at units which may not performing as expected is a much better way of looking at LatD than the previous idea regarding changing the army list structure ;)

I'm happy to start with Khorne Daemon Assault Engines as well, but I won't go into any details, until we have a consensus that this is where we want to begin.
Author:  GlynG [ Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: LatD - Units
I agree that just tweaking underperforming/under-used units its the best option, leaving the structure and choices as is.

I find the Tzeentch flyers to be good and think they should stay as they are.

If a change to the Khorne Assault Engines is called for (and I haven't used them as much to really have much opinion either way) then 45cm guns would be the best option. The guns on the models are huge and I'm fairly sure their average range used to be longer back in SM/TL.

I find the Contagion Engines are a great choice and think they should be left as is. Compared to Whirlwinds they get to garrison to fire on the first turn, have an extra gun, disrupt, fearless and an invulnerable save - well worth the +25pts more, even without ATSKNF. Its the Plague Tower I see as the poor choice, as its too slow for it to be used as a transport and the enemy can sit back out of range of it for at least the first turn.

The most important overcosted/underused unit of all in the list has to be the Chaos Altar though and it could really do with some adjustment. If it were an independent unit it would be amazing, but as a slow upgrade it removes the coven's ability to garrison or be fast moving, plus the formation becomes expensive and a sole WE in an infantry formation is vulnerable to AT and especially TK attacks. Its a shame as they provide a really excellent conversion opportunity to distinguish your army with a centerpiece model to celebrate the particular god. I'm not sure how often people here take them but a quick tally of the easy to quantify Epic-UK LaTD lists taken is telling; with only 1 Altar taken out of 63 covens.

I would like to see the Altar get move 20cm. This is the 40,000 millennium and they're perfectly capable of mounting their Altars on tracks, pulling them with many daemonic horses, floating. them through the air our whatever. It'd still make them slow, but not quite as painfully so.

Alternatively a points drop to 100 could be a fairer cost, but I much prefer the first option.
Author:  Ulrik [ Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: LatD - Units
Wasn't the issue with the structure that it created a kitchen-sink list? Not that it was unbalanced.
Author:  Irisado [ Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: LatD - Units
GlynG wrote:
If a change to the Khorne Assault Engines is called for (and I haven't used them as much to really have much opinion either way) then 45cm guns would be the best option. The guns on the models are huge and I'm fairly sure their average range used to be longer back in SM/TL.


The ranges for the Khorne Daemon Engines in Space Marine were:

Cauldron of Blood: template (25cm)
Death Dealer: 25cm (majority of weapons)
Tower of Skulls: 50cm (majority of weapons)
Blood Reaper: 50cm (majority of weapons)
Doom Blaster: 75cm
Brass Scorpion: 25cm* (majority of weapons)

*I could be mistaken on the Brass Scorpion's range, and I can't find a copy of its old rules to check.

The average range is 42cm, but if we remove the Doom Blaster, as it's an outlier, relative to the others, the average drops to 35cm, which is more representative in my opinion, as Khorne Daemon Engines were never supposed to have that much of a long range. Should they really have the same range as Devastator Marines with Missile Launchers, and some fire support vehicles? I don't think so.

Ulrik wrote:
Wasn't the issue with the structure that it created a kitchen-sink list? Not that it was unbalanced.


I think that the differences of opinion, as well as the reasons, are well documented in the other thread.
Author:  frogbear [ Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: LatD - Units
Khorne daemon engines need to be compared against defiler engines. Even if you gave them a 45cm shot, they are not a comparable option at 300 points ( obviously i am comparing them for use in different lists).

I really wish we could move from this discussion into a thread that starts to discuss change ideas.
Author:  LordotMilk [ Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: LatD - Units
GlynG wrote:


Its the Plague Tower I see as the poor choice, as its too slow for it to be used as a transport and the enemy can sit back out of range of it for at least the first turn.

The most important overcosted/underused unit of all in the list has to be the Chaos Altar though and it could really do with some adjustment.

Alternatively a points drop to 100 could be a fairer cost, but I much prefer the first option.


+1 for the Plague tower. I think it could do with a lower cost by 50 or even 75. It is an awesome assault engine though, as it can absorb all the hits if placed in front, and with its 3 saves the result is impressive. But its slow movement means it can never reach far objectives, and it is only good when and if used as a transport, so it becomes a very expensive formation.

For the Altar, a simple points drop would be fine for me. I dont think the move change will make any difference otherwise.

The Slaanesh Titans are a bit underpriced tbh, by 25 each when picked as singles. I would rather see the same options, or singles at + 25 points each.

The Firelord should really be a 2DC WE, unless BL objects. Otherwise they should get a batter save and perhaps +1 on their BP.

The Doomwings are ok, nothing exceptional though, and perhaps their armor save could do with an extra point.

The Khorne engines, I would tend to agree with Irisado (ie FF 4+). Frogbear seems to want 45 cm range for the WE list, but I am not certain I understand why. I do agree with him that they are a bit overpriced and could do with a price decrease of 50 points. Alternatively, and I know his would be a big change, we could work on them being 2 DC WEs.

I have rarely used or seen used Big Mutants even though people have the minis. Perhaps they are a little overcosted? or at least they could have a discount if you take them in large numbers?

the Griffon, LR, LRD and Hellhound upgrades could do with EuK prices.

The 1 GD per faction restriction could be removed.

I for one am all in favour of the separation between the more daemon-oriented cultists, and the more traitor oriented cultists. This would allow for more traitor options available without unbalancing the list.

I am thinking in the lines of what is available to alpha legion cultists in Chrom'as list, like SHTs, sentinels and Storm Troopers.
Author:  Steve54 [ Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: LatD - Units
IMO the slaanesh WEs are fine - Questor is useful but already expensive, Subjagator is good on paper poor in practice as with LATD low SR the opponent should always go first and prevent it CCing any WEs
Author:  Tiny-Tim [ Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: LatD - Units
Once Steve is satisfied with the BL changes we will jump into this so warm up your armies to play, play, play test.
Author:  Tiny-Tim [ Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: LatD - Units
Ok Gents lets go.

Khorne Assault Engines - What are the perceived problems, why and what would you like to see as the change for them?
Author:  Man of kent [ Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: LatD - Units
Is this the place to raise issues I have with covens and what i perceive to be a gross over costing of them/the units therin being far too shoddy?
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