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Daemon World List

 Post subject: Re: Daemon World List
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 5:59 pm 
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Just to let you know, I have just put together some Soulgrinders for use with this list


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 Post subject: Re: Daemon World List
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:19 am 
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I'm hoping to give this a try in the next month or two.

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 Post subject: Re: Daemon World List
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:34 am 
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A question on the Greater Daemon Horde - the formation itself is 0-1 but it then talks about a maximum of one per faction represented. Is this just a typo from an older version where you could have more than one formation?

EDIT - or is it a limitation on the number of GDs within the formation?

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Last edited by IJW Wartrader on Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Daemon World List
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:39 am 
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novemberrain wrote:
Just to let you know, I have just put together some Soulgrinders for use with this list

So. Cute. :spin

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 Post subject: Re: Daemon World List
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 1:26 pm 
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IJW Wartrader wrote:
A question on the Greater Daemon Horde - the formation itself is 0-1 but it then talks about a maximum of one per faction represented. Is this just a typo from an older version where you could have more than one formation?

EDIT - or is it a limitation on the number of GDs within the formation?


Ok i think I get the confusion.

For each faction represented in the army by having a lesser daemon horde, you may include a greater daemon horde of the same faction made up of 1-3 greater daemons of the same faction. e.g.

Khorne Lesser Daemon Horde made up of 6 Bloodletters would unlock the ability to take between 1 and 3 Bloodthirsters as a Greater Daemon Horde formation. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Daemon World List
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 1:50 pm 
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Ah, so the formation itself isn't 0-1 but it's limited to a maximum of one formation per faction represented. Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Daemon World List
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 3:16 pm 
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Yeah, the wording / intended limitation is a bit tricky - sorry!

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 Post subject: Re: Daemon World List
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:29 pm 
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Those Soul Grinders look great! You have inspired me to get back to work on my Daemon army. Keep up the good work.

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 Post subject: Re: Daemon World List
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:26 pm 
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I took the daemon list out for a spin this past weekend against Dwarf Supreme's Steel legion (no photos, sorry).

Daemons:
6 x Daemonettes w/herald - 250
6 x Fiends of Slannesh - 300
8 x Bloodletters w/herald - 300
7 x Skull Cannons of Khorne - 350
9 x Horrors w/herald (supreme co) - 325
9 x Flamers of Tzeentch - 325
7 x Plaguebearers w/herald - 275
6 x Soulgrinders (BTS) - 450
7 x Plaguebearers w/herald - 275
6 x Furies - 150
Total pts. 3,000 w/ 10 activations

Steel Legion:
Reg HQ w/Griffon upgrade & commissar (supreme co) - 575
Leman Russ company w/commissar (BTS) - 650
3 x Basilisks w/commissar - 250
Infantry company w/commissar - 250
Sentinels - 100
Rough Riders w/commissar - 150
Stormtroopers w/commissar - 200
Warhound titan - 250
Warhound titan - 250
T-Bolts - 150
T-Bolts - 150
Total pts. 2,975 w/ 11 activations

I held the Soulgrinders, Horrors and Flamers in reserve to deploy via Teleport later in the game. I garrisoned most of the infantry ahead of my Blitz and near one of the objectives on my half of the board. The Skull cannons, Furies and Fiends were deployed normally.

I won strategy on turns 1 and 2, Dwarf Supreme won on turns 3 and 4. I was able to use terrain to avoid the bulk of his fire power early on. I Teleported in on turn 2, with the Soulgrinders behind some buildings and the Horrors and Flamers in two seperate buildings (they all received bms) behind his Reg HQ. I won strategy and then rolled two, 2s with the Soulgrinders and failed to engage the Reg HQ. Dwarf Supreme then blasted and broke the Flamers. My Horrors tried to engage and failed to activate on a 3+ because of Teleport bms (losing two daemons due to "instability") - they were promptly broken in return. I failed to activate a fair number of times due to the 3+ for having bms and the Heralds don't have the "Leader" ability. I lost five lesser Daemon stands due to "Daemonic Instability" and failed to activate the Soulgrinders and Skull cannons once each. When the Skull cannons did activate, they sustained effectively on his Reg HQ and broke it after it had suffered losses from a previous engagement. The Fiends were able to almost wipe out the Stromtroopers, the Furies broke a Warhound in CC and a unit of Plaguebearers wiped out the Rough Riders in FF. While I was lucky and managed to knock out one of the T-Bolts with some Furies, his aircraft avoided the AA from the Souldgrinders and were able to inflict some losses, especially on the broken Daemon formations. The Soulgrinders got in btb with the Lemans, but lost due to his good armor saves and only killed one Russ. The game ended turn 4 with the I.G. getting "Blitz" and "Take and Hold".

Overall, I had fun - none of my formations seemed overpowered, but the battle did shine light on some of the problems with this list. The Daemon list should activate on a 1+. Assault armies tend to activate on a 1+ like Tyranids, Necrons, Marines, Chaos Marines, Eldar(?) and Orks (double/engage). Playing an assault army such as the Daemons was tough because having to activate on a 2+ and retaining on a 3+ is hard enough, but with bms from enemy fire, teleporting and the lack of "Leader" to get rid of bms from the previous turn, I was looking at a 3+/4+ most of the time. I understand that the Daemon list has very little ranged shooting, that half the list options don't have a FF value and that I can lose lesser daemons to failed activations. That's fine, I very much like the list, the problem is that without a 1+ activation to offset the likely bms from teleporting/shooting and the "Leader" ability to shed bms from the previous turn, it results in too many failed activations and lost infantry bases (thus helping the opponent even more) and the list can't perform it's central purpose - to assault.

I also realize that point values for units were kept simple as the list was just starting out, but these should be refined. I feel that Furies and Nurglings need to be cheap based on their limited stats. For lessers, Tzeentch should be worth the most points, followed by Nurgle, Khorne and Slannesh in most cases. For Greaters, it should be Khorne followed buy Tzeentch, Nurgle and Slannesh. There should also be discounts for buying larger formations like there are in other lists.

Well, those are my two cents so far, I really like the list and it's potential. I'll report in with more playtests soon.

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 Post subject: Re: Daemon World List
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 10:12 pm 
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Since this was my first time playing against this list, feel free to take my impressions with a grain of salt, but some things do stand out.

The 2+ activation and having no ability to take Leaders did make it difficult for Chris. Not being able to shed blast markers did make things tough for Chris. Fortunately for him he didn't lose that many stands due to Instability, but I can see how it could be catastrophic. I suggest either changing the activation to 1+ or give Leader as a possible upgrade. With an appropriate change to the points cost, you could probably change both at the same time, but it would probably be easier to playtest one change at a time.

Speaking of points cost, some of the formations do need a little tweaking.

Overall the list looks like a good one to play, with no formations seeming overpowered or any glaring weaknesses, aside from what I noted above.

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 Post subject: Re: Daemon World List
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 3:53 pm 
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Thanks so much for the playtest guys and it was really good to get feedback from both sides :)

Couple of points:

1) go furies! Breaking a Warhound titan seems pretty impressive tbh!

2) It seem you both agree that the combination of 2+ activation and the lack of leader is a stickingpoint - do you thinking changing both is necessarry tho? I would probably prefer to try out 1+ activation initially as that is the bigger change and then tweak from there with leader.

3) Re: points costs - I am a bit constrained by the stats and some costings from other lists, but I have been planning on having a total rebalance of the points costs of formations and upgrades in the near future. I am a bit hesitant to price all of the lesser daemons seperately, after all, they all cost the same to summon in other lists, although I am aware that some are more useful than others. I am not really sure how to get over it tho...

Also some questions:

1) As an opponent how did youfind the teleport mechanism? As a player of the list what was your strategy for your teleport - it seems defensive (teleporting into cover etc) - could you see how teleporting more aggresively would have made a difference? Or were the blastmarkers too much of a risk?

2) How did you find the availability of AA / Scouts / Infiltrators / etc etc?

3) Would 1+ activation change your army composition? You didn't take a GD for example?

Thanks for the batrep!

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 Post subject: Re: Daemon World List
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:27 am 
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Hey November, I'm happy to help out with the list. I'm going to try to get in another playtest in about a week from now.

Yeah, the Furies got a little lucky and broke the Warhound, sadly their glory was short lived as they were caught out in the open and vaporised right after that - but they're from the warp, so they'll be back.

I'll test the army at 1+ activation, without "Leader" and see how things go out for the next game.

As far as point costs go, I think that the Greaters should be priced differently from one another as the differences in capabilities are more pronounced as they are WEs and can be deployed up to three in a formation. Maybe you could do one price for Tzeentch/Nurgle lessers and a slightly lower price for Khorne/Slannesh/Undivided lessers. Maybe make upgrades a lower price to field larger formations? Nurglings should be a pretty cheap formation based on their stats. Special items like Fiends of Slannesh and Khorne Juggernaughts, etc. could be priced on a case by case basis - just throwing those ideas out there.

I Teleported the three formations based on the terrain and the position of D.S.'s Reg HQ. The buildings were behind his formation and I placed the flamers in a building (where they would have a 4+ save rather than their normal 5+) and where they could lend FF support to the assaulting Soulgrinders. I also placed them all close to each other for mutual protection, in case I lost strategy. With strategy 2, it's a 50/50 chance vs. the I.G. and worse vs. most other army lists, so I did deploy them in a defensive manner, but they also had a lot of offensive potential. I chose the Soulgrinders, Horrors and Flamers to teleport because I wanted to get the CC and FF power that they have, right where it would do the most good. Infantry tend to be slow and I didn't want D.S. to be able to side-step those formations with his faster army. I let the other formations move up on foot in order to keep him in place and focused on them. I will try to Teleport with more formations next time and see how that goes.

The list has enough AA for me, while it's short ranged, it's mobile which is nice. I like the availability of Scout, Infiltrator, etc. I used several formations that had those abilities and having a 1:1 ratio of core to support, it's not easy to power-game those abilities.

I didn't take any Greaters because I was going for activation count. I know that I could have taken one, but it would have been easily broken and a formation of two or three (500/750pts), while powerful, would have reduced my activation count by up to two. I will take Greaters in the next playtest, as an upgrade and/or a formation - I'm interested to see how they perform.

Let me know if there's anything else that I can do to help with this list.

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 Post subject: Re: Daemon World List
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 2:30 am 
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Agreed, playtesting 1+ activation without Leader would be a good start.

As for teleporting, as the opponent I had no problems with it, aside from the normal anxiety of facing an army with Teleport. Chris was fairly aggressive with his teleports. The flamers teleported into a building behind my Regimental HQ to lend support for the Soulgrinders and horrors, but Chris failed to activate the Soulgbrinders because of blast marks they received when teleporting. The flamers ended not doing much, not because of Chris not being aggressive with them, but rather failed activations. When Chris was unable to engage with the Soulgrinders my Regimental HQ shot the hell out of the flamers, putting them out of action.

There seemed to be enough AA. The Soulgrinders teleported onto my far right flank, which made them easy to avoid, especially since I was more concerned with placing blast markers and trying to reduce broken formations.

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 Post subject: Re: Daemon World List
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 7:42 am 
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Thanks guys that is good to hear and I look forward to seeing how the 1+ activaation will change things

I do agree that the lesser have different levels of value and I think that is something that will need to be looked at - possibly having a 5pt per stand drop for the less useful ones on the base cost of the formation (tho that makes them rather spammable...). I am far more open to fiddling with the stats of the more specialist units e.g. nurglings, juggernauts on a case by case basis.

I am really glad to see your thought process behind the teleportation / assualt you set up as I am / was quite worried about the power that it gives you to set things up without the opponent being able to respond. The low(ish) SR was the offset to this and I am glad it has had its deisred effect - low SR, teleportation BM, and high activation means that setting up amazing comibined teleporting assualts is something that is (and should be) very hard to do :)

Greater Daemons I am also open to pricing individually or possibly making the addition of extras a different price. Personally I see Khorne and Tzeentch as the most useful, but we can have a discussion about it.

Again, thanks guys!

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 Post subject: Re: Daemon World List
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 3:43 am 
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I took on captPiett's LatD army with my Daemons today.

Daemons:
7 x Plaguebearers w/herald - 275
7 x Nurglings - 175
7 x Plaguebearers w/herald - 275
7 x Plague Drones - 350
9 x Horrors w/herald (supreme co) - 325
11 x Screamers - 275
8 x Bloodletters w/herald - 300
2 x Bloodthirster Greaters (bts) - 500
6 x Soulgrinders - 450
Chaos Portal - 75
Total pts. 3,000 w/ 9 activations

LatD:
Stigmatus Coven #1(Nurgle) w/ Demagogue - Arch Heretic (supreme co), 6 x Land Transporter, 1 x Hydra - 310
Nurgle Plague Tower - 325
Stigmatus Coven #2(Nurgle) w/ Chaos Marine Aspiring Champion, 1 x Spawn, 2 x Hounds - 245
Nurgle Plague Tower - 325
Stigmatus Coven #3(Nurgle) w/ Demagogue, 4 x additional Mutants - 260
Nurgle Contagion Towers - 300
Stigmatus Coven #4(Undivided) w/ Demagogue, 6 x Land Transporters, 1 x Hydra - 310
Thunderbolt Fighters - 150
Stigmatus Coven #5(Khorne) w/ Chaos Marine Aspiring Champion, 1 x Chaos Altar, 1 x Spawn - 375
Khorne Lord of Battles - 400
Total pts. 3,000 w/ 10 activations

I held the Soulgrinders, Horrors, Nurglings, Bloodletters and Bloodthirsters in reserve to deploy via Teleport later in the game. The Plaguebearers, Plague Drones and Screamers were deployed normally.

I won strategy turns 1 - 3 and captPiett won on turn 4. I Teleported all five formations on his right flank on turn 2. Four out of the five formations received bms coming onto the board, with the Soulgrinders not getting any. The Horrors engaged Stigmatus Coven #1, breaking it. This unfortunately left the Bloodletters too far away from the next target, a Nurgle plague Tower. I attacked that Nurgle plague tower, after it had broken the Nurglings that had ZoC'd it, with the Screamers and Soulgrinders. None of those three combats even laid a bm on it. It took two rounds of CC with the two Bloodthirsters to finally destroy it - captPiett's armor saves were ridiculous. The LatD's Nurgle Contaigon Engines were very effective at breaking my infantry formations with their 4bp Disrupt shots. CaptP. decided to intermingle Coven #5 with the Contaigon Engines to protect them from assault. They defeated the two attacking Bloodthristers, (killing one greater and breaking the other) in turn 3. CaptP was able to sweep the Plaguebearers and Plague Drones aside with the Khorne Lord of Battles and a couple of Covens on my right flank. I was able to rally pretty well at the end of turn 2, but after barely keeping captPiett from winning 2-0 (DTF, Blitz) at the end of turn 3 by marching the Bloodletters to contest one of his DTF objectives, I rallied poorly and the LatD won 3-0 (Blitz, DTF, T&H) at the end of turn 4.

I've realized that this army, while very unique and very fun, is very unforgiving when you make a mistake. I should have Teleported the Horrors and Bloodletters to a more central location behind is Covens, so that they would be in range to assault multiple formations. By placing them on the far flank, they were left behind as the situation in that sector changed. I have learned that when Teleporting, one or two Scout formations need to be included to ZoC the enemy, in order to protect the other formations in case the opponent wins strategy. By being aggressive with this list (which is necessary), it is hard to send the mainly slow formations back to defend the Blitz in the case of an enemy breakthrough. The 1+ activation helped a lot, I didn't roll as many failed activations this game and it was easier to rally of course.

My main concern at this point is the lack of ranged shooting in the list. I realize that this army list is based on the WH40K Daemon codex and has only a little shooting in it, so I am absolutely not suggesting any new made-up units or formations. What I would like to propose however, is that all Heralds get a 15cm ranged shooting attack. This is supported by the codex with lesser, greater and exalted chaos rewards that Heralds can obtain. The 15cm range is in line with the short range of those attacks. The Heralds' shooting attacks could all have the same stats, or they could have different stats based on each mark. It may not seem like much, but to a strictly assault army, being able to prep an enemy formation for assault is essential. Even with bms from Teleporting, the Herald would be able to shoot by positioning other friendly units within 15cm and suppressing them instead. Four out of my five formations that teleported were already at a -2 for combat resolution if/when they assaulted because of bms and they had no way to prep the enemy formations to even things up.

Since I have played I.G. and LatD, I will try to play against Space Marines (good guy or bad) next.

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