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BLACK LEGION REVIEW - CHANGES TO TEST

 Post subject: Re: BLACK LEGION REVIEW - CHANGES TO TEST
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:18 am 
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Hi!

I kind of liked the faction rule. After all, fluff-wise, they don't like each other. I'd suggest bringing the rule back, but the other way round. So if you have a rivalling faction withing a certain distance, you recieve a malus of 1 to your initative (don't know if it's written +1 or -1, ini effectively goes to 2+).

cheers,


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 Post subject: Re: BLACK LEGION REVIEW - CHANGES TO TEST
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:51 pm 
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mspaetauf wrote:
Hi!

I kind of liked the faction rule. After all, fluff-wise, they don't like each other. I'd suggest bringing the rule back, but the other way round. So if you have a rivalling faction withing a certain distance, you recieve a malus of 1 to your initative (don't know if it's written +1 or -1, ini effectively goes to 2+).

cheers,


The faction rule was deliberately done the opposite way.

This was so players who forgot to add the bonus to their initiative roll didn't gain an advantage as could happen if players forgot to take the negative to their initiative rolls.

This put the emphasis on players to remember the rule to get the bonus not to have to remember the rule to get the negative.


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 Post subject: Re: BLACK LEGION REVIEW - CHANGES TO TEST
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:15 am 
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but as was discussed recently, since it applied in almost all cases, both players still forgot to 'subtract' it when two hated factions did meet.

Despite the intent of the wording, players were actually translating in their heads into the more sensible form and then promptly forgetting about it anyway...

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 Post subject: Re: BLACK LEGION REVIEW - CHANGES TO TEST
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:43 am 
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I'm hoping to get some games in with this in the next few weeks, has anyobdy else tried them out?

Also I realised I omitted the addition of a Havoc formation in the, now pretty sparse, support section - any thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: BLACK LEGION REVIEW - CHANGES TO TEST
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:55 pm 
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Steve, I can't mod your post to attach this so here it is here instead.

Fixed the lack of points for the Havoc formation typo.


Attachments:
black_legion_2012_dev.pdf [534.51 KiB]
Downloaded 90 times

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Last edited by Dave on Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: BLACK LEGION REVIEW - CHANGES TO TEST
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 1:12 am 
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I have been toying with my Black legion recently, and I like the proposed changes on daemons. Fluffy, fun and points wise just good.

I do have an issue with decimators however. And I don't believe putting them in allies section solves it. It's nice to have a SHT option with the Black Legion in the main part of the list. I would rather have a 1 per core choice option on them. Also, I believe their CC should go up to 6+, they should lose either IC on their gun and their cost should go up to 250 pts. With these changes, maybe even a list restriction would not be necessary. Or even removing Fearless could be an option.

I understand that the proposed change on them has been integrated in the Tourney pack, but I really think it is a great shame to basically lose the SHT otpion with Chaos. When competing with Deathwheels, Ferals and Navy, I see little reason to pick Decimators ever, which is a shame for my nicely converted miniatures. Also, IG, Eldar and others all have WE options in the main lists, on top of ally WEs to add, why remove all these options from the Black Legion.

Please consider an alternative to just banishing decimators to oblivion! :'(

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 Post subject: Re: BLACK LEGION REVIEW - CHANGES TO TEST
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 8:36 am 
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The problem with them is that you can field 7+ fearless WEs in a viable army build. slight changes to the gun, CC + cost have little impact on that. Removing fearless makes them pretty much worthless as they get broken then hacked down - IG SHTs are pretty much always fearless (or can use long range) while eldar are fast, have better list AA to protect them and perform better at long range.

With the straight choice between decimators/ferals/death wheels I think all are viable options. With decimators you get much needed MW and a unit that fits better in the list, with ferals/death wheels you get the standard fast-WE advantages but less hitting power and the problems of a fast unit in a slow list

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 Post subject: Re: BLACK LEGION REVIEW - CHANGES TO TEST
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:03 pm 
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Steve54 wrote:
The problem with them is that you can field 7+ fearless WEs in a viable army build.

Steve

Honestly have you ever seen that done? I feel that 'viable list' is being used a little freely in this example.

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 Post subject: Re: BLACK LEGION REVIEW - CHANGES TO TEST
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:11 pm 
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Yes - 4 or 5 quite regularily, 7 on a couple of occasions. I would think given your well documented hatred of fearless you would be in support of limiting them

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 Post subject: Re: BLACK LEGION REVIEW - CHANGES TO TEST
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:28 pm 
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Steve54 wrote:
Yes - 4 or 5 quite regularily, 7 on a couple of occasions. I would think given your well documented hatred of fearless you would be in support of limiting them


Yes you are correct. :) I uust never really thought it was a viable option.

If it was, then I stand corrected. Metagame is different no doubt.

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 Post subject: Re: BLACK LEGION REVIEW - CHANGES TO TEST
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:23 pm 
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Steve54 wrote:
The problem with them is that you can field 7+ fearless WEs in a viable army build. slight changes to the gun, CC + cost have little impact on that. Removing fearless makes them pretty much worthless as they get broken then hacked down - IG SHTs are pretty much always fearless (or can use long range) while eldar are fast, have better list AA to protect them and perform better at long range.

With the straight choice between decimators/ferals/death wheels I think all are viable options. With decimators you get much needed MW and a unit that fits better in the list, with ferals/death wheels you get the standard fast-WE advantages but less hitting power and the problems of a fast unit in a slow list


I disagree that they are useless without Fearless. They remain incredibly potent, just easier t deal with, but they still MUST be dealt with. How many other 200 point unit can you say that about? Also they can be fielded in twos or threes, making their break point much more difficult to reach.

Second, I disagree that Guard or Eldar are much better off. No other SHt has the Decimator Loadout. Also they all seem to manage in playing with SHT that dont have Fearless. And by far not all Guard SHt's get a commissar.

Thirdly, I disagree that they compare well against death Wheels and Ferals. As you justly said both those give some Heavy weaponry and speed to an army that needs it. While the decimator remains terribly slow. I am ready to bet with you that if that change is implemented, you will not see more that 10 decimators in tourney lists in total in the next 3 years. Which is a ridiculous number.

Finally, I believe changing the army list structure in sich a way is not doing a change in the right direction. People want to play their miniatures. People have built Chaos army lists for years now with the Decimator as a main staple of the list. Not only for its stats but the actual organisation of the list. Such a change would make all those lists illegal. This is not an experimental list. Its a list that has had approved status for years. At this stage of the evolution of the Black Legion list (such a central one to the universe and game) I cannot imagine how one could just make such an important change without trying less hrutful alternatives. Change the stats, sure, change the point cost sure, force them to be boguth in threes or twos sure, but make whole converted and built armies illegal for play... That is really unwarranted.



Again, why would you just kill the Decimator for the world ?

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Last edited by LordotMilk on Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: BLACK LEGION REVIEW - CHANGES TO TEST
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:02 pm 
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I hate to interrupt a perfectly good tirade (Lord knows this forum needs all the tirades it can get), but these changes are for testing only at the moment. The 2012 compendium and the tourney pack both have decimators safely in the elite formation section of the 13th BL army list. I don't think the proposed changes (decimators included) are irresponsible or "a disservice to the community."

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 Post subject: Re: BLACK LEGION REVIEW - CHANGES TO TEST
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:18 pm 
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My little tirade comes from the fact that the Tournament pack has incorporated the change....

:'(

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 Post subject: Re: BLACK LEGION REVIEW - CHANGES TO TEST
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:32 am 
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Ok, so I double-checked before I posted, and now I've triple-checked. Decimators are elite in the 2012 tournament pack, not in the WE section. Am I missing something?

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 Post subject: Re: BLACK LEGION REVIEW - CHANGES TO TEST
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:28 am 
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My mistake. I apologize. I was looking at the wrong file. I have all the files on my PC and the Dev list being edited in the same way as the Tpack I actually took one for the other.

I have edited the "tirade" so as not to offend anyone, for indeed anything can be proposed. Again I apologize for the strong rhteoric.

However, I still believe there are many alternative solutions to the removal of Decimator in the Elite choices. And that such a removal should really yonly be considered as an ultima ratio.

Could we test non-fearless CC 5+ Decimators? Perhaps we could allow the fromation to have daemoinic pact? This would encourage Daemon use (which seems to be a priority on current AC's list) and help on the break/hack count.

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