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[Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list

 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:18 am 
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Rather than try and write all the pricing and stats down, I have made the old document available here: Old World Eaters List

I hope it provides some useful ideas for you

Cheers...

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 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:03 am 
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Khorne gets all the best toys.

A lot of those are similar enough I'd consider merging them as a unit entry, much as how the Ork battlewagon variants were merged. I'll need to digest this.

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 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:45 am 
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madd0ct0r wrote:
Khorne gets all the best toys.

A lot of those are similar enough I'd consider merging them as a unit entry,


And that is exactly what we did :D

Results are in the latest World Eaters list to be found in the compendium or here if you need a quick link.

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 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:29 am 
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I'll just leave this here, but clearly some balancing will be needed.

(DISCLAIMER - the plauge mortar calcs are iffy due to it being the only BP weapon and their numerous special rules)

EDIT: updated with a 2nd graph taking account of range. I think the Plauge Mortar needs to be cut down by 1/2 or maybe a 2/3.

it depends how many hits you assume it'll get per BP.

EDIT EDIT:

OK. I'm going to suggest the following changes:

Plauge Mortar goes from 3+D3BP to 2BP
(formerly you could only get one per 325 point Plauge tower, and it's a really powerful weapon. Also has disrupt). Possibly rename to Chem Mortar to avoid confusion.

Beam of Power -> Beams of power. 2x shots

Castigator Cannon-> Castigator Cannons. 4x shots

no other changes

Arcane tech is still there primarily for AA (unlike the Ordinatus the Demon Engines don't have native AA), so should be a little less good

while it sucks in a straight comparison, the rot cannon comes out well once range is factored in

and the two CC weapons work nicely as high powered gambles.

AFTER the proposed changes:
Attachment:
wep change.jpg
wep change.jpg [ 32.57 KiB | Viewed 3288 times ]


Attachments:
demone weapons.xls [23 KiB]
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 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:23 am 
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EDIT
V2.1 up.
Changes, everything is now formatted nicely, you can thank Ulrik for that.

Plauge Mortar got renamed and heavily nerfed,
Castigator cannon got upgraded to a twin linked version (4 shots, not 3)
Beam Of Power got Renamed to Beam of Light and upgraded to MW3+

All Infernal weaponry was then repriced to 150 pts, and the cost folded into the Demon Engines.

Tweaked the Great Spawn stats a little, and reduced the formation size to only one. This is more thematic and makes the critical work more smoothly.

to do:

Need to test various builds carefully, checking that the demon engine horde is relatively balanced AND fun to play against.
Try and recreate old engines using the new rules.

Look at what else to add to the list - needs something more I think.

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 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:30 am 
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hmm, my last update never posted.

ok. Did a little experimenting with army creation from the list as it stands.

It needs more stuff. There's repetition even at 3k, let alone 5k.

I'm considering a Monstrosity to equal an imperator.
1050pts, 12DC, RA Supreme commader, CC4+, FF4+, speed 20cm, may take 4 Infernal Weapons along with 4x Battlecannons and a doomsday device

Things like this appear in the fluff so often it seems silly not to accommodate it, and it'll fill the list out better at high points

Also: Soulgrinders: 6 legged unbound versions of defilers:

(exactly what they become is influenced by future changes to defiliers, they're supposed to be more expensive and a bit better) They've got 1 point more armour, can deepstrike and have slightly different weapons. The harvester has an inbuilt 6 shot assualt bolter

Suggest 4 for 300 with:
AV speed 20cm, Arm 3+, CC4+, FF3+, fearless, inv save, infiltrator
weapons:
Vomit: 15cm, AP3+ ignore cover
OR
Tongue: 30cm AP3+/AT4+ ignore cover (Based off a demolisher cannon)
OR
Phlegm: 35cm AP4+/AT4+
Harvester Claws: (assault Weapons) MW EA(+1) AND (small arms) EA(+3)

the three gun weapon options look to be merged I think, probably to just phlegm (maybe giving it ignore cover)



Beyond more units:

BTS considerations were a pain, so I need some way of letting people make their war engines cost more. Since I really really like having all the weapons equivalent, I'll put that cost on the bound demons,
Slaanesh = 6
Nurgle = 7
Khorne = 8
Tzeentch = 9
undivided can get malal's number of 11,

It's a bit fluffy, a bit fiddly but seems to work. It also means I can break the tyranny of 25point upgrades only.

Looking at making the older demon engines using this list, a brass scorpion is difficult because one of it's key traits is infiltrator so I might add the infiltrator skill as the basic bonus of the bound undivided demon.

thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:52 am 
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V2.2 posted.

included the above, with a few differences to the soulgrinder stats. (15cm speed for garrison, less shooty, more choppy).
revised the weapon calc spreadsheet too - I'd rather stupidly applied the MW effect from the chainfist to ALL cc attacks, not just the extra ones.
I've now filtered the base CC output off, so you can see how much better the CC+ weapons are then the basic.

As a result, the CC+ weapons, especially the chainfist aren't so good anymore, but on a Leba class engine they're terrifying. actually, pretty much everything about the leba class is terrifying, including the cost and the ridiculously overpowered critical.
(basically, I want it to recreate that part near the end of the novel where the heroes, having planted the bombed /disabled the mcguffin now have to try and get clear of the blast wave.)

I want to improve the criticals on the smaller engines too - possibly a lurch randomly then blow up job, possibly a randomly attack the nearest war engine job.


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 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:50 am 
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Using bound and unbound demons

As I planned it anyway. Obviously, unbinding the demon will be inflicting damage each turn (and BM’s too) so they’d better be saved for when you really need them.
I’m aiming for them to be a little addictive, that once you’ve unbound the demon it can be very tempting to just continue next turn, not put him back in his box.
Don't forget, that you can put multiple bound demons in a Triad formation. it's an investment, but 3 khorne engines would be really really terrifying. as are all the other options, now I think about it.

Nurgle:
The most obvious and simplest to use of the demons. The unbound bonus is a bit situational – it’s basically most use when the single dc you loose to corruption is less then what you’d loose without the Reinforced Armour. Coupled with the innate bonus to amour, the unbound demon engine can shrug off far more attacks then otherwise possible, even if it’s still vulnerable to dedicated titan killers.
Add to anything you want to make tougher, be it an artillery objective guard, a heavily armed line breaker or a meat shield for the rest of the formation.

Tzeentech:
The firefight bonus makes the Tzeentechian engine the natural choice for clipping assaults to damage the enemy or pull larger formations out of position. Skimmer is useful to deny the enemy a chance for close combat, and also, in a support role, to snipe or flee over terrain and generally disrupt the enemy’s plans.
Possibly extremely powerful but might need a little skill to us properly.

Khorne:
The bonuses and abilities here are as straightforward and unsubtle as Khorne itself. Get the Demon Engine into battle and let it tear a bloody swathe through the ranks. Later on, as damage and BM’s start to reduce it’s combat effectivness a blood sacrifice for inspiring will let it continue to challenge even fresh formations until its final inevitable end. Blood for the blood god.

Slaanesh:
Durable speed is one of the most important things to have in Epic. Clearly, the speed bonus is slightly less useful when taken on a single engine within a formation, but the unbound infiltration double charge distance is useful. One idea I’m toying with is the suckerpunch. The Slaaneshi engine, equipped for close combat lurks a little behind two shooty friends, carrying BMs and being suppressed for them.
Once within range, they move to engage with the Slaaneshi engine charging past it’s friends and straight to the important unit that needs removing (combination of infiltrator’s charge range, ingnoring zones of control and a warmachines barge makes this very difficult to block).

Undivided (slightly edited)
The purest of the support type engines. The bonus to initiative just makes it that bit more reliable, key for those 'everything turns on this activation' moments. Unbound, the commander ability lets it draw in other formations too, getting the most of of the weak support formations or drawing together the demonic engines against a truly formidable foe

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Last edited by madd0ct0r on Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:14 am 
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next aiming for adding another core formation: chaos androids.

so:

INF
speed 15cm, ARM 4+, CC4+ FF3+

Weapon: Flayer, AP5+/AT6+

Invulnerable save

lead by a Heretek character. Maybe a Formation of 6 + Character. No upgrades.


May add a Hellmouth Assault Pod to the really big demon engine, can transport 8 units, also gives 2xheavy flamers. It's a 1050pt behmoth, it should be over the top, and as the only transport in the list, it actually gets to do something. Probably change name to Cal Tebah. If I can find out how to transliterate this ביצים בסל I'll use it instead.

EDIT: http://stevemorse.org/hebrew/heb2eng.html suggests BITZIM BSL, which I guess slurs out into Bitzim Basel.

given the Ekan in use was derived from AKHAD, and the Triad is derived from the Greek, not hebrew I'm not going to get too wound up on accuracy.

Incidentally, I hadn't realised there were so many variant transliterations for three - שליש
(SHLOSH, SLOSH, SHLUSH, SLUSH, SHLVSH, SLVSH, SHLOS, SLOS, SHLUS, SLUS, SHLVS, SLVS) - none of which sound remotely threatening.

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 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:05 am 
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I'm going to take the deafening silence as a good sign: there's nothing anybody is really worried about ;)

V2.3 up.
IMPORTANT: I will now not tweak the list for at least a month, instead aiming to test it to destruction.

added: chaos androids formation, transport to the Thrice Damned engine (the big un)

INITIATIVE changed to 2+. When you're a few activations lower then the opponent, you can't afford them to fail. Likewise, added a stat bonus of Initiative 1+ to the Undivided bound demon, as I couldn't find a single reason to take that upgrade otherwise.

I think the list has all of the units it needs for flexibility and list building even up to 5000 pts now.
just got to get the sucker finely balanced.

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 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:08 am 
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This is how I approach making army lists for any list, but especially the titan ones where activations are needed.
The support formations in this list are quite specialized. And while ok in their role, more then 2 of each type (except defilers) would be overkill and make the list weaker elsewhere.

@ 3000pts i could have

2 Triads , thus giving me 1700pts to spend on 4 support formations. Since the MOST expensive useful support formation is only 450pts, this is a bit silly.I'd have to field three harbinger bombers and a swollen acolyte band just to fill out the points.

3 Triads = 6 support formations at 175 pts (possible)
or 5 formations at 210 each (ideal)

=9 or 8 formations in total. On the low side of average, but not as much as a pure titan list. However, the demon engines have no RA, no void shields and an average Armour save. An armored company is far, far more resiliant.


at 5000 pts: five triads give you 9 or 10 support formations at 175pts or 193.3pts each

seems ok.

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 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:36 pm 
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right - i've started modelling these up slowly.

anybody have anything else they'd like to see in the list? else i'll cut straight to playtesting...

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 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:31 am 
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Skimmed the thread bt not read in detail, so sorry if these are already covered:

Where are smaller DC1 daemon engines (aside from defiler)? DC3 on the lesser engines does not match how 'lesser engines' are classed in other chaos lists.

Soulgrinder: plegm and vomit? would one bodily fluid be enough, especially given these are presumably being projected from the same orifice? Phlegm or vomit? I mean i know it's a daemon but brining up a glob of phlegm whilst projectile vomiting … maybe im taking this too literally ;)

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 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:36 am 
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If you don't think thats possible you evidently don't have children

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 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:41 am 
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Fair enough, I also doubt i've vomited in the past ?5? years, so ill leave it to those with more experience ;D

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