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[Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list

 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:54 pm 
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madd0ct0r wrote:
hmmm, but if the list only deals with new fashion war engines (3-4 of which will be completely new to the universe) i predict gnashing of teeth from people with old models...
Brand new Demon engines in the new fashion -
reason rejected - lets get a list working for existing models first.

Fair enough. It's your project.

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perhaps a little Chaos civil war is in order, between an Old Style Magos (who builds machines and binds demons) and a New Wave one (who sculpts ideas that demons wear)?

Yep. I think there's a big difference between the old school "cobbled together by cultists" daemon engines that are almost Orky in their patchwork and the newer "custom built for daemons to inhabit" engines. The styles clash in a big way.

According to the AC, the plan is to split a cultist/daemon engine list out of the L&D. That's going to include all the old school DEs, which is why I was encouraging you to go with a new-style list.

Quote:
EDIT: Banelord, ravager and feral... are they khorne worshippers?

No. "Banelord" is a Khorne-specific name, but as far as the rules, it's a generic chaos Warlord chassis titan.

Quote:
FURTHER EDIT: would people consider a special rule to replace 'loyalty amongst friends' that simply strips all of the demon engines of fearless? I'd get the carefull use of fragile resources I'm after, we murder loyalty which nobody really likes, and it's equally fair across all of the deamon engines.

Some people might object on stylistic grounds and it definitely will conflict with the "one unit, one stat line" development concept.


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 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:44 am 
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Well, I knew there was going to be a demon engine spun out of the Latd list - that's why I thought I'd have a bash at it. I must admit, this exercise is making me look at the latd list with new eyes.
It lets you do mass cultist and demons, traitor guard, aligned traitor gaurd with cult support, demon engine heavy, demon heavy ect ect.
It's a well balanced broad list. it's the damn holy grail. could we just leave it alone?

As for the one stat line, one unit rule. bugger.
Right. well. that settles it then. Avant Garde Engines it is.


about 20min after writing the Ordinati Style list was rejected, I found myself in a 3 hour meeting with very little to do. The natural consequence of this was I wrote the basics for an Ordinati Style list.
I have simply not had the couple of hours free to properly write it up in the last 6 days.

Aim: Create a reasonably flexible 'pick and mix list'. This can be used to represent the new style Demon Engines, or the old models with a reasonably WYSIWYG approach.
The main difference between the New Wave and Old Engines seems to be a matter of styling, not really a matter of stats or battlefield performance, so it'd come down to the models, I think.

I'll try and get the thing written up and tightened up in the next few days.


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 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:48 am 
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Question: How do people feel about units change stats mid battle?

I want to represent a bound greater demon getting partially free.


in the normal bound state it gives a boost to some appropriate stat, fearless and invulnerable save

unbound, it gives a further stats bonus, a reduction elsewhere and/or special rule (eg skimmer) but at the start of the next activation will lose one DC as the warp energies twist the frame out of recognition.

you can play it safe for the small bonus or burn out in a frenzy.

Engines without a bound demon (limited to say, 1 per 1000pts) don't have fearless, making the list less horrible to play against.


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 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:51 am 
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madd0ct0r wrote:
Question: How do people feel about units change stats mid battle?

I would try and stay away from this as much as possible. There can be enough difficulty in remembering loss/gain of daemons on strat roll and factions rules. Changing stats would not be welcomed by most opponents.


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 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:38 pm 
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madd0ct0r wrote:
Question: How do people feel about units change stats mid battle?

..or how about a unit of 5 that combine to become MEGA ENGINE! :)

I think that idea may get a more realistic following.

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 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 2:18 pm 
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madd0ct0r wrote:
[L&D is] a well balanced broad list. it's the damn holy grail. could we just leave it alone?

I think the main issue people have is that it's too broad. It lacks focus. And, of course, despite the breadth a lot of the tournament lists look surprisingly similar.

Tiny-Tim wrote:
madd0ct0r wrote:
Question: How do people feel about units change stats mid battle?

I would try and stay away from this as much as possible. There can be enough difficulty in remembering loss/gain of daemons on strat roll and factions rules. Changing stats would not be welcomed by most opponents.

I agree with Tim.

OTOH, a wholesale replacement might work, i.e. remove the old unit and replace it with the new unit as the GD breaks free and manifests. You'd have to come up with something relatively non-fiddly and straightforward in terms of allowing an opponent to quickly grasp the mechanics.


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 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:05 pm 
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frogbear wrote:
madd0ct0r wrote:
Question: How do people feel about units change stats mid battle?

..or how about a unit of 5 that combine to become MEGA ENGINE! :)

I think that idea may get a more realistic following.




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 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:11 pm 
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Beware my babies mutate and combine to become the petulant manchild - or so i am told. :D

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 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:52 pm 
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nealhunt wrote:
OTOH, a wholesale replacement might work, i.e. remove the old unit and replace it with the new unit as the GD breaks free and manifests. You'd have to come up with something relatively non-fiddly and straightforward in terms of allowing an opponent to quickly grasp the mechanics.


Although it'd mean you'd need twice the number of models, that's a cool idea. Something like a tower of skulls, and a tower of skulls with half a greater demon of Khorne modelled bursting out.


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 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:16 am 
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that's the plan.

I'm going to specifically make the model side flexible - you can mark an unbound demon with a marker, a new turret or vehicle base or even an entire new model.

god i need to get on and write this up


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 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:51 pm 
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V2.0 up (hmmm, missed some numbers somewhere)

Very different list. bit of a rip off of Evil and Chaos's Ad-mech PDF list tbh.
Much more flexible, hopefully not to generic. Points costs largely chosen via dartboard.

EDIT:

Regarding two other developments:

1) I might take the focus of this list to be the forces of Heriditor Ashopel when he leads the Zocian hive against Vervunhive in Dan Abnetts 'Necropolis'.

He used giant 'crab' tanks (the size of several leman russes) and even bigger 'spider' tanks (100m ect). These seem to correspond neatly to the demon engine (3dc) and greater demon engine (5DC) in the list.

He also uses a 1800kg mutant blob from 'a cloning farm'! Go Giant Spawn Go!

2) The zoicans field armor and artillery (possibly combined use Vehicles) that are noted to not be as tough as the Guards.
So I might include LV cultist tanks as a small formation, hopefully mirroring their inclusion in a much bigger way in the proposed cultist guard list. Maybe.

EDIT EDIT: Does anybody have a rule of thumb formula for estimating the points costs of units or weapons? It'd help a novice like me a lot.


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 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:10 am 
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To do list:

run the maths for the different weapon options.

aim to adjust all of them to be equally desirable, and then move the cost onto the formation tag to simplify army building.

Test 'recreated' classic demon engines.

Wait for further Lost and the Damned development before including any new formations

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 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:51 pm 
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madd0ct0r

If it helps i will post up the stats we came up with for all the individual khorne engines - tomorrow. :)

Use them as you see fit. I gave up with that way and decided to make the world eater ones generic yet different from the latd.

As for the banelord, i tried to get a generic change to the name. That did not go anywhere so i guess it stays as the generic which is sad really. A generic one should be more in line with an imp guard one imo as the banelord is quite a different beast altogether.

Keep it going. Persistence and an open mind is the key.

Also i am happy to see that you view the latd list differently. That happened to me too. I really like the list as well.

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 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:16 pm 
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stats and or prices would be nice.

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 Post subject: Re: [Fanlist] The Stygian Incident demon engines list
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:43 pm 
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Tomorrow. :)

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