Tactical Command
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Hell Talon costs?
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=20549		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Dave [ Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Hell Talon costs?
Why are two Hell Talons only 25 points more than two Thunderbolts?

Code:
Hell Talon  AC  FB  5+  -  -
  Incendiary Bombs   15cm  2 BP       FxF   
  Twin Lascannon     45cm  AT4+/AA4+  FxF   
  Havoc Launcher     45cm  AP5+/AT6+  FxF


Code:
Thunderbolt  AC  FB  6+  -  -
  Storm Bolters         15cm  AP4+/AA5+       FxF
  Underwind Rockets     45cm  AT4+            FxF   
  Multilaser            30cm  AP5+/AT6+/AA5+  FxF


Talons are twice as hard to kill, get 2BP instead of a Storm Bolter attack, a longer range on a multilaser comparable shot and only sacrifice 2 AA5+ for a single AA4+. They're also benefiting from the factions rule and have an initiative of 1+.
Author:  BlackLegion [ Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hell Talon costs?
Different army different cost.
Author:  Dave [ Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hell Talon costs?
I can see that argument holding water if the stats were identical or close to each other, and if the armies had vastly different capabilities and weaknesses. The stats are closer to a Marauder than a TBolt however, and SM strengths and weaknesses are closer to those of the BL than other armies so that response does little to explain the discrepancies.

Both armies use their aircraft in similar rolls (BL more so for AA, SM more so for strafing maybe). Yet, the Talon is closer to the Marauder than the Tbolt stat-wise, and price-wise it's closer to the later than the former.
Author:  Ginger [ Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hell Talon costs?
Must say Dave, I tend to agree that the Helltalon is possibly slightly undercosted - but then I have been saying that about the BL list for years :)
However I have always reckoned that the BL list is ~5% to ~10% undervalued, and in those terms a price increase to 200pts would not be warranted.

In practice, the TBolts come into their own in an AA role and when attacking broken ground formations.
The Helltalons do less well at AA, but really excel against broken ground troops and especially broken armour.

So all in all I am not sure it is really a problem.
Author:  PitFiend [ Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hell Talon costs?
Dave wrote:
Talons are twice as hard to kill

Twice bugger-all is still bugger-all. ;D

Both will be jinking for all they're worth against anything but attack run flak and CAP, so once they're done attacking, the Tbolts are as survivable as the Talons when it comes to saving throw.
Author:  frogbear [ Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hell Talon costs?
Hell Talons are 250 points. That was the last decision after changing them to 2BP

I will have the updates done today as I have the afternoon free.

Just to clarify:

Hellblades = 200 points
Hell Talons = 250 points
Author:  zombocom [ Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hell Talon costs?
Honestly it's Hellblades I worry about much more than talons. They're awesome for the points.
Author:  frogbear [ Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hell Talon costs?
zombocom wrote:
Honestly it's Hellblades I worry about much more than talons. They're awesome for the points.


Here is the response from Steve54 on that one:

Steve54 wrote:
No we don't need to go through the argument again. 3 for 225 was the decision before but testing of that and of 3 at 200 with 30cm shots (which the recent discussions have generally agreed is superior) have shown that its not too good and would be fine at 200
Author:  Morgan Vening [ Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hell Talon costs?
zombocom wrote:
Honestly it's Hellblades I worry about much more than talons. They're awesome for the points.

I Agree With This Post.

I know it's been 'locked', but that doesn't change my opinion on the matter. I don't have a big issue with the actual stats, my issue is them coming as a triplet. There's an exponential factor that applies to aircraft. I'd pay 225 for three Thunderbolts. I'd even consider 250 (actually paying more than pro-rata'd cost).

The ability to bull through light/moderate AA is really potent, especially when up against transport aircraft. I'd put Helltalons on a Thunderhawk covered by a Hunter, but would hesitate doing so with Thunderbolts (or at least keeping the TBolts outside 15cm, weakening the offense).

But it's all moot now, I guess.

Morgan Vening
Author:  Steve54 [ Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hell Talon costs?
Prices as Frogbear said - also initiative for planes+spacecraft is 2
Author:  Dobbsy [ Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hell Talon costs?
I agree with Morgan.
Author:  Dave [ Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hell Talon costs?
Steve54 wrote:
Prices as Frogbear said - also initiative for planes+spacecraft is 2


250 it is. Does the Faction rule apply to them? It's current wording suggests it does, so that would make them 1+ effectively.
Author:  frogbear [ Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hell Talon costs?
Faction rule does not apply to the Chaos Navy - that has also been corrected in the upcoming army book.
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