Pre-heresy, the ranking for the TSons was:

Probationer - These are people identified as having promising psychic potential and allowed to prepare for a test to join the Thousand Sons. Thralls seem to be different, effectively having some sort of minor psychic ability and absolute loyalty to the point of self-sacrifice.

Liber Throa - Test for acceptance as a Neophyte of the legion. It seems that if you've been identified as a Probationer that the ability to pass is pretty much a given.

Neophyte - Still mortal. Neophytes are experiencing primarily mental and spiritual training
Zealator - Not addressed in A Thousand Sons and mentioned only one time, but this is presumably the stage at which geneseed is introduced and military training commences.
Practicus - At the point the brother is a full member of the legion but is still under the tutelage of advanced personnel, presumably Adepta of one form or another.
Philosophus - A full legion brother given independence in terms of study. The implication is that not all of them will necessarily prepare for the Dominus Liminus as they can be highly experienced veterans without having done so. The Sekhmet/Scarab Occult are veterans equivalent to "First Company" status and are primarily Philosophus.

Dominus Liminis - test to become an adept. Although I can't put my finger on where I got the idea, the novel left me with the impression that the Dominus is not only a test but an ordeal that unlocks further psychic potential upon success. Not much detail on Adeptus except for an obvious hierarchy of power and control.

Adeptus Minor - Adepta Minor are not commanders but not so numerous that they can make up an entire Fellowship, as the elite Sekhmet include Philospha.
Adeptus Major - Adepta Major seem to almost all be of commander level. Even some cult leaders are only Adeptus Major.
Adeptus Exempla - Exempla seem to consist of no more than 4 or 5 legion members, if that many.

Babe of the Abyss - passage to Third Order in the Order of the Silver Star (Golden Dawn) from which this hierarchy is ripped. This is not used in the novel, but it has a nice ring to it.

Magister Templi - The spiritual leader of one of the TSons cults, not just highest rank, but one who has mastered its concepts. In the novel, there are cult leaders who are not Magister (or even Adeptus Exempla). Magnus functions as the Magister for those cults. In the Order of the Silver Star a Magister Templi is a person enlightened enough to have developed their own school of thought and to have followers of that school.

Magus - The next step up from Magister. Magnus is the only being in the Thousand Sons to achieve this rank.

Ipsissimus - Essentially, the perfect human being. The Emperor is the sole example.

============

Until further information is forthcoming on the Rubric, I'm taking some pretty big SWAGs. My best guess is that a tiny portion of Practica would have survived and a small number of the Philosopha. Background says those who survived unlocked latent psychic potential, which would make going through the Rubric the equivalent of passing the Dominus Liminus. All those who were legionnaires at the time of the Rubric would basically have become Adepta or been reduced to Rubric marines.

Due to the nature of the legion and the need for intensely supervised training of new sorcerer recruits, I think that TSons would likely retain more of their legion structure. Their intense focus on discipline also lends itself to that interpretation. Some fragmentation is unavoidable and can fit into this scheme but even the schismatic sects would retain a rigorous training schedule.

So, converting the pre-Heresy structure to post-Heresy...


Probationer - I see these being identified chaos cult psykers, possibly some thralls (even though that doesn't jive 100% with the above), with the potential to become Thousand Sons.

Liber Throa - I see this as basically the same but probably more dangerous

Neophyte - Basically the same in terms of being mortals undergoing mental training. I think it's reasonable to make this more of a challenge post-Heresy, with Neophytes having to prove themselves dearly before being allowed to progress.
Zealator - There is some question about whether post-Heresy Thousand Sons would have access to geneseed, but whether there is some residual geneseed or if the physical enhancements are entirely sorcery driven, it's still at this point where the Neophyte is moving from being a mere mortal to an Astartes-level Thousand son.
Practicus - Basically the same, undergoing the final stages of tutoring before being a true TSons sorcerer. A converted loyalist SM Librarian would probably come in as a Practicus.
Philosophus - Full sorcerer bretheren.

Dominus Liminis - As with Liber Throa, more dangerous. It definitley unlocks additional potential.

Adeptus Minor
Adeptus Major
Adeptus Exempla

Adeptus would be basically the same as above.

Babe of the Abyss - passage to Third Order. I think this could be included as a rite of passage for an Adeptus Exempla to found a cult. This would be the point at which there would be a schism as a faction of the Thousand Sons would follow the philosophy of the new Magister.

Magister Templi - A proven philosphical leader. Basically, the equivalent of a Daemon Prince in one of the other traitor legions.

Magus and Ipsissimus - N/A


Rubric Marines - There is a lot of speculation about how they are replenished. At the very least, I think it's pretty clear that the TSons can recover and repair the armor for fallen Rubric marines to reactivate them. Some theories state they need most of it. Some say they only need a piece of the original to bind the spirit. A few people have speculated that they don't need any of the armor and can instead build an entirely new suit and summon the spirit of a fallen Rubric brother to the new suit.

I think there may also be another possibility. The Pyrae cult are very adept at possessing machinery, up to and including a disabled battle titan. I think they may be setting it up in A Thousand Sons for the post-Rubric legion to literally create new automatons from scratch using that kind of mechanism.

In any case, I'm going on the premise that there is some way to keep them in operation despite short-term combat losses.

The style of the Thousand Sons is that of advancing hierarchies. There are circles within circles, sometimes overlapping. Every level and nearly every individual has a set of secrets. Magnus has his council of commanders that seems to include more than just the Fellowship commanders. The Pesedjet is composed of the Fellowship Commanders. Each of the commanders has their own inner circle and so forth. I'd like to keep that idea in mind while considering army list formations.

Neophytes are still largely expendable, so they can be a cheap line formation. The Leader would probably be an Adeptus Minor instructor (so if you have cool names for that position, let me know). Non-Fearless, obviously.

Zealators and Practici would be too valuable to be committed to battle in concentrated groups. They would accompany full fledged sorcerers and be in the personal entourage of high ranking members but they don't really.

Philosophi and Adepti Minor would lead Rubrics into battle rather than deploying as formations.

The most fanatical Philosophi and Adepti Minor who have been granted discs would deploy in dedicated formations. Non-Fearless.

Adepti might deploy together and would be elite troops. Non-Fearless.

To try to keep a nod to the sacred numbers and at the same time keep the formation sizes somewhat under control for the problematic units (like massed Rubric Marines) I was thinking 3*3 = 9, 3*9 = 27. 3 squads of 9 would break down into 6 infantry units.

No champions. Use Thralls instead.

I'm wide open on ideas for how to include the tutelaries if anyone has a clever idea, but because they are basically psychic power boosters I think they can be represented by Thrall upgrades.

Thralls available in slightly larger numbers due to the Champion/Tutelary considerations.

No titans. I'll include them in the doc with point costs so they can be used, but they aren't part of the core concept of the list.

I'm considering cutting Dreadnoughts. There weren't any mentioned in A Thousand Sons even in the Battle of Prospero. If there were dreads, they occupants would almost certainly have been Rubric-ified.

Unless someone comes up with a tremendously compelling argument against it, I'm going with the Tower/Spire/Palace series of units because the towers are so iconic to the TSons. AV/DC3/DC6.

I'm currently waffling on the "Ahriman's Chosen" idea. The current upgrade is confusing and has never been clarified successfully. If you guys think we should keep it, I am inclined to make a separate formation with defined units and limited upgrade options simply to make it as clear as possible.

I've come to the conclusion that Primarchs should be more powerful than typical greater daemons, so I'm making Magnus DC4.

My current thinking runs along these lines:
======

Core

0-1 Scarab Occult - A Supreme Commander formation, composed of Adepta and led by either an Adeptus Exempla or a Magister Templi (a DP-equivalent SC). Obviously, an SC will not be mandatory or free. 5 Adeptus units + Exempla or Magister. Teleport ability. Might have an option to have a disc-mounted version (similar to Disc Riders + Winged DP).

Rubric Fellowship - As now, Rubrics led by Sorcerers. 6 units w/ Lord character. Probably keep the 1+ requirement.

Neophyte Cult - 9 units + Adeptus Minor leader.

Thousand Sons Armor - No change. Could be moved to Support.

Silver Towers - No change.


Support - probably 1 per Fellowship, but I'm not fully decided

Sekhmet Disc Riders - Mounted, Skimmer instead of Jump Packs. Everything else the same, will revisit point costs, but should be pretty close in price.

Thousand Sons Warcoven - Rubric Termies. No change.


WE/Air

Greater Spires - 1-3 per formation. Could be moved to Support.
Warp Palace
Doomwings
Firelords
Spacecraft

While I'm at it, would one of you latin-knowing people confirm the plural for Adeptus? Adepta? Adepti? Adeptalamadingdong?

Isn't the whole point of "Imperial Gothic" that it's wrong/bastardized "Latin"? *laugh*

Adeptus is probably in the second declension, so the nominative plural would be Adepti.

Romanes eunt domus!

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Awesome. Something to read at lunchtime. I will be back

Adepti is probably about as close as you can come.

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Nice wrap up Neal. Alot of informations to digest and I know I am going to have to come back to it when I am not at work.

You have alot of scope there for non-fearless units so that is a great start. I will try to offer some formation suggestions for you (probably on the weekend) to compare against other ideas you may have.

In regards to the Rubric - it is all guess work I guess till the novel comes out. History states that the armour was sealed shut. I would think that as long as the full armour (majority) was retrieved, then it could be re-activated. Anything that was just a fragment (a glove perhaps) is stretching the idea of these guys a little too far IMO.

I like the idea that the TS would keep to the ways that they know. This makes sense and will form a basis to what I present to you for ideas.



You have lost me on this one. Can you please explain that in another way that a pleb like me can understand?



Interesting. Wasn't there talk of a Jump Packing Titan? I like the different thought on this. It will be interesting to see what you come up with



Does FW make TS Dreads? Interesting point you make however. I will start the search via the 'Visions of Horus Heresy' book. I am sure I saw evidence of older red Dreads in there...



Like I stated before, Interesting. I would ask that the AV Towers themselves are not as available as any Troop Core unit. Whether that be through cost or restriction, I do not mind, however they are a very good formation, yet extremely hard to find in any number (I have 9 myself I believe).

I also do not believe it is in the interests of the list to have an army full of these things. They may be a major and iconic part of the Thousand Sons, but I have a hard time believing that they would show up in great numbers. I also believe that they should favour the person playing and be bought in units less than 9, but be upgraded with more units to a total of 9 if the player wishes. Just some alternative views



It is easily added or removed. It is a very unique aspect to the list, yet if you deem it 'problematic' leave it out for a future addition after all the rest has been tested



As much as I love Daemon Princes being DC (I have made Angron for the World Eaters after all and am looking at doing Fulgrim), it does belong in as a 'fanboy' addition only at present - hence only when agreed on by an opponent. With so much else to play-test in the list, this could be left to a later time when/if we ever get agreement to include the Primarchs. I would stick with the standard Daemon Princes for this next release. It just makes sense at this time to keep it simple.

Like I said, when I come back to this I will have had time to digest it all properly. It is looking very promising and you appear to be thinking about alot of stuff that may be seen as contraversial - which is one thing I like. A little bit of chaos is what is needed. Just need to know where and when to stop.

Looks very promising and full of good fluff

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Hmm... Can't delete. How sad.

Morgan Vening

A 'sacred' squad is 9. 9 is 3 squared. So 3 has a minor significance. 3 squads are 27 Rubrics in total. At approximately 5 to a base, 27 Rubrics are 6 bases. Which fits into a more standard size for an elite-ish unit, rather than the initial 9.

Morgan Vening

Oh I see...

So 3 bases of 5, and 3 bases at 4? OK. I can work with that I guess.

Other option is to have 9 units but for them to be mixed *hides*

I started a 5.0 draft. So far...
===========

0-1 Scarab Occult - 5 Adeptus + Exempla, 400 points
Rubric Fellowship - 6 TSons + Lord, 275 points
0-1 Ahriman's Chosen - 9 TSons + Lord + teleport, 450 points
Neophyte Cult - 9 + Preceptor Character, Initiative 2+
Armor
Towers

Support - 1 per Fellowship
Warcoven
Sekhmet Disc Riders

WEs/Air - as above

========

Scarab Occult
I figure buying the SC, which Black Legion doesn't do, offsets the increase to SR5.
Adeptus Exempla is the same as the previous Sorcerer Cabal SC unit.
Magister Templi is an upgrade for Scarab Occult equal to the previous SC Daemon Prince w/o wings
Adeptus units are equal to basic CSM + Invulnerable, First Strike and Teleport. I figured them at about 50 points to start, though I think that's probably too high.

Rubric Fellowship
I reduced the number to a flat 6 units - 3 squads of 9, possibly with an extra sorcerer or three thrown in - to keep the numbers of Fearless units in a single formation down.
I removed the 1+ requirement because limiting the support to 1 per Fellowship puts pretty heavy pressure on the player to take them.

Ahriman's Chosen
People seem to like this idea so I'm going to try keeping it, even though I have some reservations.
I made the formation large so it is expensive to require a substantial amount of resources dedicated to it.
There are no upgrades available, so there are minimal teleport combos, e.g. no teleport/summon.

Neophytes
Same as the previous incarnation. The only change was to update the leader name to "Preceptor" because I thought that was in keeping with the style of the Golden Dawn titles.

Warcoven
I'm sticking with the 85 points per unit for additional units for now. I think the 100 points for comparable units in DG might be a bit high and the Rubric restrictions will definitely slow them down.

Sekhmet
I'm going to start testing with the same price. I think the benefits of Skimmer are offset by the inability to use terrain as effectively as before, so it should be close.

===

I feel pretty solid on this mechanically except for a couple issues.

What about the level of Teleport? The list is relatively lacking in other areas. However, you could pretty easily make a 3000 point force where over half of it teleports in (Scarab Occult, AC, 2 Warcovens).

I'm still concerned about the amount of Fearless units that could be taken if the player so chooses.

I considered the idea of dropping the Tower initiative to 2+ in order to drop the price down to the L&D levels. Also, it would allow a drop to the Spires' initiative if that is desirable for cost control purposes.

===

Obviously, we're still dealing with "on paper" feel at this point, but does the list seem appropriate as to style?

Has the need for non-Fearless formations swamped the flavor of the Rubric?

Does it violate the feel that you could take a TSons list made entirely of sorcerers, without a single Rubric unit? I'm not sure it would be terribly effective but it's possible.

What about the idea of taking a Cult/Daemon list? Neophytes, armor and daemons would almost look like a L&D list. I don't necessarily think that's bad as an army, just that it's not very Thousand Sons.

If all that is too much, an option would be to move the Neophytes to Support and increase Support to 2 per Fellowship. That would go farther towards forcing a Rubric component.

I think a Thousand Sons army without at least one formation of Rubric Marines isn't a Thousand Sons army.

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