Since this came up again in the TSons thread and the brief exchange that started this discussion has been buried in the EC development thread, I thought I'd pull it out to a dedicated thread.

Steve: What do you want to do with daemon engines and their initiative?


Personally, I would lean towards keeping them at 2+ across the board for AV formations, including Defiler formations, and aircraft.

I understand that in theory a 1+ Initiative CSM formation with attached Defilers might be whittled down to just the Defiler and cause confusion. However, only 2 of the 4 cult lists have dedicated Defiler formations and with the exception of the Iron Warriors (maybe), I don't think any of the fan lists for other CSM legions have Defiler formations. In practice, it would be extremely rare for it to happen. I'm also not convinced that it will be confusing even when it does.

WE formations are trickier. In BL they are 1+ (Deathwheels and Decimators) but in the L&D they are 2+ (Lords of Battle, Plague Towers, Slaanesh titans). Big WEs generally have better Initiative, but that's hardly universal and a split between the CSM-specific daemon war engines and all the others might be reasonable.

Cult Lists have better Leadership than LatD. This enough IMO to justify the 1+ initiative.

I believe Daemon Engines should have an initiative based on the list it is in. It makes no sense to me that a unit's initiative should be part of it's datafax.

If it is an ally formation (as in LatD), then fine, but not if it exists as part of the legion's Core formation.

As for Defilers Engines:
World Eaters have them
Emperor's Children have them
Death Guard Have them
Black Legion have them
Red Corsairs have them

I think that is a little more than two army lists...

Any discussion on War Engines being anything than 1+ is ridiculous.

From play experience of 2 cult lists now, when you are trying to survive in a game, just adding another defecit in initiative and actions (when other units are broken as they always are), is just plain wrong. The lists already have a small to non-existant playgroup. Why make it worse?

The other thing is the cost value. As soon as you drop initiative, then people will argue that the costs should remain the same as Strategy Rating is still higher. In effect, this will be just another nail in the coffin to the future of the Cult Lists ever getting games. They rely on their 'Signature Daemon Engines' more than any other lists. Why should their main Core units be effected by an across the board initiative?

We are doing things arse backwards. The Cult Lists should provide the strictures and templates for other lists to follow if they want to use thier items. Not the other way around.

Happy for anyone on here to prove me wrong, but I have over 20 games (closer to 30 actually) of playtests with Cult Lists and effecting the initiative will really impact the game for them with no great gain to come from it. It is not like we have see Cult lists winning many games at all have we? So why make it worse?

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I think there's a big problem with the overall background continuity with respect to daemon engines, so maybe we need to address that first.

Basically, daemon engines have been crammed into chaos lists because they were all there was in terms of a characteristic vehicle, not because they fit. In fact, the L&D list was designed with "include the old daemon engines just 'cuz the grognards want them" as a goal. Some of them aren't even really "daemon engines" (at least not as I understand the term).

Daemon Knights are a separate force that happens to be in service to Slaanesh. Those were elite units that converted. Most likely they are the same kind of amalgam of original crew, machine and daemon that chaos titans are supposed to be. That's not really what is implied by the term "daemon engine." They are not at all linked to any other Slaaneshi force by the background. In partnering, though, it makes sense they would be more likely to team up with other elite forces like EC or other Slaaneshi CSMs. Basic cultists - not so much.

Silver Towers are not daemon engines at all. They are entirely constructs of Magnus and the Thousand sons and have always been 'crewed' by CSMs and mortal slaves and thralls, not possessed by daemons. The only references to daemons in the Towers/Palace are to them being bound into service of the sorcerers, not in control of the buildings. There's no reason they should ever be with any force except Thousand Sons.

Tzeentch fliers are built specifically to house daemons, so they are "true" daemon engines. They are high tech/high sorcery constructs. They fit fine with Tzeentch marines of any flavor or other similar high tech/high sorcery forces, but not so much with the low-tech cultist forces.

Khorne engines are vehicles built specifically to house daemons as well. However, the older style wasn't really especially linked to World Eaters. I'm not as familiar with the newer ones, but I got the impression that they were more explicitly linked to the marines. I could see a split in them between low tech/cultist style engines where the daemons would be more likely to be rebellious berzerkers or otherwise difficult to control and the high tech new style that would have a more controlled, disciplined rage about them.

Nurgle engines are also built for daemons but they are more ramshackle in design to begin with. Stylistically, they are perfect for cultists but don't really fit with the Death Guard, imho. The DG are decaying, but they are still methodical and precise, that being Mortarion's focus. That said, I could see DG-specific engines that were similar enough in function that they used the same stat lines, just not the cobbled together Nurgle engines. (Personally, my vague sometime-in-the-future plan for building a DG force includes converted Bombards for the Contagions and a Leviathan for a Plague Tower.)

Defilers and the BL daemon war engines were designed by Abaddon's forces. They are true daemon engines and would be expected to be precise and possibly well-disciplined. They could reasonably be adapted by other elite forces but they probably shouldn't be with Cultists. Defilers or Defiler-like designs might arguably be ubiquitous enough to be with lesser troops

The Chaos Altar isn't really a daemon engine but it fits the style as well as some of the others. The description of them is vague enough they could reasonably fit almost any force.

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So, putting aside the problematic L&D list, we could feasibly treat all the chaos AVs/WEs on a case-by-case basis...

House Devine - 1+ Initiative, could go with any elite Slaanesh force
Silver Towers - 1+, TSons only
Tzeentch air - 2+ (because they are aircraft), with any elite Tzeentch force
Khorne - newer ones 1+ with elite force, 2+ and undisciplined force for the older
Nurgle - 1+ with elite force, 2+ other
Defilers - 1+ with disciplined force, possibly 2+ with others
BL war engines - 1+, BL only
Altar - 1+ with elite force, 2+ other

I would agree with the above. I do not want to see 'across the board' initiative shackles. As presented, it should depend on the force using them.

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My initial reaction would be 2+ but I do like the compromise solution that Neal has suggested

Compromise is good. Let's compromise

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nealhunt makes a lot of sence

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That was meant as discussion and "devil's advocate" rather than a direct suggestion.

The drawback to a "follow the background" approach, of course, is that the official L&D list pretty much blows it apart. All the elite and dedicated stuff has already been relegated to just generic daemon engines.

Steve: Any more thought on this? There are several lists which need resolution.

Well I am about to freeze two of the lists and for the time of the freeze, I want them to stay at 1+ initiative.

I have not seen a cult game yet that has won a game without it being by the skin of their teeth. The hit in initiative... well I have said it before....

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I will also add that a change in Initiative will also mean that the Blood Rage rule for the World Eaters will have to be looked at yet again as it will not function the same as it does currently. There is no alternative that works as well.

This will also effect the ability to rally which is a big deal for cult assault armies.

Overall, those calling for a 2+ are not taking into account the assault armies. While 2+ may have little impact for shooty or horde forces (I think I have covered them all with those two labels), it greatly effects the highly specialised assault forces of the World Eaters and to a lesser extent, the Emperor's Children.

I am constantly asked (rightly or wrongly) why I am not thinking of how things effect forces such as the LatD, yet now I find the same people not considering their own advice in regards to the other effected lists.

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For the moment lets go with 2+ initiative for all daemon engines
- easiest option across all lists
- matches existing LatD

i don't understand why blood rage is affected - surely the initiative bonus still works via blood rage, questor+subjagator work well and, if anything, are a little cheap in LatD so I don't think matching that initiative but with a higher SR is crippling.

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"If you don't agree with me, you just haven't thought about it" is not a valid point for discussion. Clearly from the discussions, people have taken this into account. A difference of opinion from yours should not be equated with willful ignorance.


Asking how you plan to mesh changes with established lists, rules and design concepts is not accusing you of "not thinking." It's just a question about your thought process.


As far as balance, if it makes a substantial difference in the performance of the formation then drop the cost. You are developing 2 of the cult lists. That shouldn't be a problem.

Including war engines?