Tactical Command
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Daemon Engines
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=17593		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  BlackLegion [ Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Daemon Engines
Well currently a vehicle which is possessed by a Daemon (a Daemon Engine) gets Fearless and either Reinforced Armour or an Invulnerable Save.

In Wh40k the vehicle upgrade Possessed is just that. A Daemon Engine. It negates the 1 and 2 result of the Vehicle Damage Table which are "Gun Crew Shaken" (vehicle can't shoot next turn) and "Driver Stunned" (vehicle can't shoot and move next turn). Thats 1/3 of the table rendered useless.
So AFTER a shot penetrates the armour (the vehicles fails it's armour save in Epic) it still has a 1 in 3 chance that nothing happens.
This can be represented with an Invulnerable Save.
But considering that both negated results would affect a living crew which a Daemon Engines just doesn't has (it is only a consciousness without a physical body steering the vehicle) this should be somewhat represented in Epic.
Fearless is a possibility because as a Daemon it will focus on it's orders and lust for battle. The conditions of a battlefield wouldn't affect it psychically because such concepts are utterly alien to a daemon (or just an inidcation for a source of food = souls).

But a further idea:
That it isn't affected by damage that would stun a living crew could be represented that it is never surpressed by Blastmarkers.
Sure it can be broken because it's leader ha speoblems to isue orders because of the battlefield conditions but the Daemon Engine itself would have no trouble still firing at its victims.

So i propose a new specialability: Daemon Engine or more broader Possessed (to allow this ability for Infantry too).

Thoughts?
Author:  Dobbsy [ Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Daemon Engines
Quote: 

That it isn't affected by damage that would stun a living crew could be represented that it is never surpressed by Blastmarkers.
Sure it can be broken because it's leader ha speoblems to isue orders because of the battlefield conditions but the Daemon Engine itself would have no trouble still firing at its victims

Well what about the the fact that massive F%^&-off laser beams ripping into it shakes it to its ethereal core? Don't Daemons have a "link" that holds them to the world they've been summoned/trapped on? A massive volley of shots landing on its steel hide might actually force "pain" as it knows it thus causing it to hesitate or reel from the impacts etc.
Author:  Dave [ Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Daemon Engines
While not be suppressed by BMs would be a good special rule, I'm not sure it's needed here. I don't really think any special rule is needed for the daemons living in the golf carts of the 41st millennium.
Author:  frogbear [ Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:36 am ]
Post subject:  Daemon Engines
The rule would be as powerful as the unit in question. On Assault vehicles, it would be a very limited rule. On other vehicles (Cannon of Khorne, Doomblasters, Defilers, etc) it would be a great boon - especially since you rarely see such units above 4 models.

It is an interesting rule. I just feel that it would interfere with a major element of the rules that the opponent relies on to stop RA and INV units coming up the board with no obvious drawbacks.

It would also increase the costs of Daemonic Engine units which I am not in favour of.

:peace:  :devil:  :peace:
Author:  Dobbsy [ Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:49 am ]
Post subject:  Daemon Engines
Also those Assault company Deathwheels just got a massive boost. Break them but still have them shoot when that's what they do best? I'd respectfully like to decline this idea BL. :D  I also agree with Frogbear here.
Author:  Steve54 [ Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:01 am ]
Post subject:  Daemon Engines
i don't think there is any need to do this. It alters the basic rules of epic to try and copy a 40k rule which isn't needed.
Author:  nealhunt [ Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Daemon Engines
Daemonic possession only makes the unit a little bit tougher in Epic terms.  A "kill" in Epic likely takes the equivalent of multiple hits on the 40K scale.  Even if some of those are discarded in 40K, the bigger ones are not.

Most things with RA are already tough enough that the small boost from daemonic possession really doesn't need to be reflected in Epic.  Invulnerable is just a quick, convenient way to represent a slight increase in toughness for lighter units.

No special rule is needed.
Author:  zombocom [ Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Daemon Engines
Invulnerable Save and Fearless are a nice equivilent to the 40k rules, as well as the fluff behind daemonic posession. No special rule is needed, but consistency in application of these rules for all daemons and daemons engines would be nice.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Daemon Engines
Pretty much every model type/unit type in Warhammer 40,000 has attendant unique Special Rules. This is in order to inspire the target market of the GW Core Games into buying each model type (as each model type has something unique that makes it special beyond just its physical look).

Mapping across even a small proportion of those would result in Epic becoming just as slow-playing and unbalanced as Warhammer 40,000...

...so, as ever, I favour "cheating" by using pre-existing Special Abilities in combination with the stats to create approximate effects.

Unique Special Rules should be applied and created in a most prudent manner, and should only be used where there is no alternative.


So... should you want Daemon Engines to be 'braver' in some manner, I'd suggest using the "And They Shall Know No Fear" Special Rule to make them more resistant to Blast Markers...

...whether that is warranted at all, well, that's another matter...
Author:  BlackLegion [ Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Daemon Engines
@Dobbsy: I think a daemon would be glad to be freed from their metal contraption. Explains some of their ferocity. They actually want to be destroyed so that they are free to seek revenge against their captor. Sadly they are told to take as many victims with them as to the best of their abilities.  :grin:
Author:  slavek [ Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Daemon Engines
Creating new rules rarely works well, adapting pre-existing ones usually has a better result. If daemon engines vulnerability to blast markers is such an issue than perhaps using the 'They Shall Know No Fear' rule from the loyalists Space Marines is a possibility (although the points cost may need to be increased). It all depends on how open your regular opponents are to you modifying the rule set. Personly one of the things that i like about Epic Armageddon is the relatively simple nature of the rules, there is much to be said for simplicitly.
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