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| Hellblades http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=17509 |
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| Author: | Steve54 [ Sat Dec 26, 2009 7:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Hellblades |
These are a unit I haven't used much so this is largely based on the feedback in other threads- Hellblades Fighter Armour - 2 x Reaper Autocannon 15cm AP4+/AT6+/AA5+ Forward Arc 200 for 3 WHY To better reflect the actual model and its weaponry - changes from the original proposals (loss of armour) are as it has been reported as too good in playtests. |
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| Author: | Onyx [ Sat Dec 26, 2009 7:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Hellblades |
A 6+ Armour save can't really be called too good. Are there any other aircraft which are auto-killed once hit? |
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| Author: | frogbear [ Sat Dec 26, 2009 8:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Hellblades |
Too good in playtests are from which ones? Mine or others? Upon review of all the games and what I and others have stated, they still do not compare to Ork Fighter-bombers. Having 'no save' is crap and does not fit in with all other fliers. Please retain the 6+ AR. If anything, they have highlighted the lack of flak and air defence people take in their forces as they strive to win by ground pounding alone. Just because they have highlighted this and caught people on a 'back foot' is no reason to 'nerf' them further. In order to have even one shot, they need to enter flak ranges which every other aircraft can avoid. They are also one of the few that do not have 360 AA. In my past 2 games, opposition Flak and CAP have shown these to not be the impact formation that they are toted to be. It is when they are allowed to Intercept or CAP themselves, or when the opponent has no air defence, that people realise their great potential. This is a failing of the general, not the balance of these planes. |
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| Author: | Blish [ Sat Dec 26, 2009 11:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Hellblades |
I think they are far too cheap at 3 for 200pts. |
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| Author: | Morgan Vening [ Sat Dec 26, 2009 1:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Hellblades |
The problem is scalability. There's nothing really wrong with the stats. It's only slightly inferior to the Thunderbolt in most aspects, and I'd definitely pay 150 for 2 Hellblades. But when the numbers increase, there's a weirdness in the overall mechanics that makes the sum greater than the parts. As there is little to no chance the formation size will be dropped to a hard number, my suggestion would be a flexible 2-3 Hellblades at 75pts each. Keep the save. Morgan Vening |
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| Author: | frogbear [ Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Hellblades |
Quote: (Morgan Vening @ Dec. 26 2009, 21:51 ) As there is little to no chance the formation size will be dropped to a hard number, my suggestion would be a flexible 2-3 Hellblades at 75pts each. Keep the save. Does this list want to set the precedent for varied number of aircraft for all lists to follow? That is crazy talk! 
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| Author: | frogbear [ Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Hellblades |
Quote: (Blish @ Dec. 26 2009, 19:48 ) I think they are far too cheap at 3 for 200pts. C'mon Blish. Other than coming up against them, and ignoring the fact that Eldar and Ork planes are superior for their relative cost, what solution can you offer?  |
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| Author: | Chroma [ Sat Dec 26, 2009 3:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Hellblades |
Quote: (frogbear @ Dec. 26 2009, 13:00 ) Does this list want to set the precedent for varied number of aircraft for all lists to follow? Orks already have a variable number of aircraft in their list. Additionally, there's no requirement that Chaos sub-lists also include variable sized aircraft formations if the Black Legion list has that. |
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| Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Sat Dec 26, 2009 3:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Hellblades |
Quote: oo good in playtests are from which ones? Mine or others? They've over-performed in my games. I'd say either lose their armour save (they still get a 4+ jink save if they want it!) or increase points cost for the formation by 25pts. |
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| Author: | Dobbsy [ Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Hellblades |
There's always the possibility of 2 planes for 150 instead. I think TRC would like to see that change IIRC so a titan and the planes could go together in one list. I think if there's only x2, the 6x AA4+ intercept ability would be reduced somewhat too. |
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| Author: | frogbear [ Sat Dec 26, 2009 11:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Hellblades |
Quote: (Morgan Vening @ Dec. 26 2009, 21:51 ) It's only slightly inferior to the Thunderbolt in most aspects, and I'd definitely pay 150 for 2 Hellblades. Quote: There's always the possibility of 2 planes for 150 instead. I think TRC would like to see that change IIRC so a titan and the planes could go together in one list. So Chaos should pay 75 points per plane for a squad of two that is inferior to every other fighter or fighter/bomber in the game? - It does not have any guns past 15cm - It cannot defend itself in an air fight Quote: I'd say either lose their armour save (they still get a 4+ jink save if they want it!) The role within a chaos force I have found is to 'stay on target'. In my games at least, the 'jink' is not even considered as the 200 points spent is needed to snipe a particular formation or unit. To use the 'jink' for chaos is to waste an opportunity. I would rather see planes go down and continue a mission rather than waste a turn where a blast marker is still earned. |
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| Author: | Morgan Vening [ Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Hellblades |
And so we go around and around again. Direct comparison is fair. In certain circumstances, the Hellblades are outshone by the Thunderbolts. Specifically against armoured targets, and mixed formations. But in their primary role, the role for which they are selected, they're essentially the same. They could probably do with a comparative points cut. Except for certain problems. Firstly, it's pretty much been stated that a fixed 2 unit formation is not under consideration. Secondly, it's also clear that a 125pt activation isn't a good thing. So that leaves us with the situation as it is, with the rules as they stand. And in those situations, as E&C has stated, and I've experienced as the player and opponent, they've over performed consistently. IMO this is due to the rules and interactions that a three plane formation has. Any real attempt at a nerf has been shouted down, so I suggested a points increase. Given that would increase the overall cost of the formation, I gave an out for those who wanted to use them as an activation spam. Without an overhaul of the Aircraft mechanics, I don't see any other solution. Morgan Vening |
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| Author: | frogbear [ Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Hellblades |
either way, I feel that orks get to have their cake and eat it too. I agree with respect that aircraft rules need to be reviewed across lists and not just this one. If this is to set a precedent (225 points seems the most reasonable for this 3 plane formation), then other lists should comply also. Otherwise, as a chaos player, like all ork players, I would like to have my cake and eat it too. |
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| Author: | Blish [ Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Hellblades |
Quote: (frogbear @ Dec. 26 2009, 13:04 ) Quote: (Blish @ Dec. 26 2009, 19:48 ) I think they are far too cheap at 3 for 200pts. C'mon Blish. Other than coming up against them, and ignoring the fact that Eldar and Ork planes are superior for their relative cost, what solution can you offer? I've always thought they should be priced at 225pts for the 3. 
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| Author: | frogbear [ Sun Dec 27, 2009 1:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Hellblades |
One thing that is also not been considered is the effect a price rise will have on the selection of the top class titan. Let me elaborate: Imp Guard can take 1 Warlord and a squad of Thunderbolts Marines can take 1 Warlord and a squad of Thunderbolts Orks can take a Great Gargant and a squad of Fightas I would hate to see a price rise in the Hellblades and not a reduction or change in the Black Legion Battlelord titan. It will be the only main army (bar eldar*) that cannot take navy with a Greater Titan selection. For years chaos has been able to take a greater titan with navy support. This review threatens that without keeping this and the Battlelord discussion in correlation with each other. *Eldar are different as their airplanes are in their own league being so effective |
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