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Banelord Titan
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=17483		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Steve54 [ Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:19 am ]
Post subject:  Banelord Titan
Opinions please -does this work as a unit at the moment? Does it need to be changed?
Author:  frogbear [ Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:25 am ]
Post subject:  Banelord Titan
Ok, out with my trumpet....

Banelord has always been a Khorne Titan. In fact, under the initial appearance of the Banelord, no other legion could use it other than Khornate marines.

So my changes: Remove it from the list and let's put our heads together in taking a standard Warlord Titan and making it a Chaos monster for the Black Legion. We have this opportunity to make the change, so let's do it.

Edit: I would also like to add, to all those people that say it should stay, then why not replace it with a Nurgle, or Tzeentch or Slaanesh titan instead of the Khorne one? What is the difference? As for modelling and what minis are available, a standard Imperial Titan is readily available for sale, as is a Nurgle titan which is possibly the easiest scratch-build to make. I cannot see why the Khorne legion should have to share it's titan when the other cults do not.
Author:  Honda [ Wed Dec 23, 2009 12:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Banelord Titan
I'm just now starting to look at Chaosy armies, so I don't have any game experience to lend at this time.

That being said, since we are all in the mood for some degree of change, I think that a couple of different approaches could be evaluated:

1. Agree with Frogbear that the "name" should be changed to something else, to be consistent with fluff. That's probably the minimum level of change to take on. It's easy to do, no risk to the list, etc.

2. Either simultaneously or as a Phase II/III development task, take on creating chaos faction specific titans. E.g. Banelord for Khorne, Hena has some cool names for Nurgle engines, Warp Palace (h/t to BL) for Tzeentch, and something like Pleasure Lord or whatever for Slaanesh.

The mechanics of their weaponry could probably use E&C's AMTL framework so that a lot of new development doesn't have to take place (i.e. "I think a volcano cannon does this...").

I think a lot of this depends on how much effort you and the community want to take on.
Author:  nealhunt [ Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Banelord Titan
On the titan itself - lots of playtesting seems to support the 800 point cost.  I don't see any reason to change it.

On the name - this is specifically dealt with in the army list.  All the factions will have functionally similar titans somewhere in the galaxy.  Alternate names are given for each of the factions - Painlord, Warplord, Plaguelord.

On multiple patterns - The Black Legion list is supposed to be primarily undivided, not tailored for every possible faction configuration.  It already has a lot more choice of War Engine selection than loyalist marines and it's comparable to the IG in terms of WE options.  It doesn't need more WE options but even if it did, they should be undivided, not factional.
Author:  AxelFendersson [ Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Banelord Titan
I've no objection to the unit as such, but I would agree with Frogbear that having the explicitly Khorne-dedicated Banelord as the Black Legion's only Warlord-equivalent titan doesn't feel quite right, and that arguing that the unit can also represent an equivalent titan from another power is not an entirely satisfactory 'fix'. Having a more generic Chaos Warlord would be preferable from a fluff/aesthetics point of view.
Author:  Irisado [ Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Banelord Titan
I have to agree that, in terms of the background, it makes no sense for a Banelord to be the only option for Black Legion.  I recognise that the names of the other Titans are mentioned, but their weapons would not be the same in my opinion, given the differences between the Chaos Gods, so I think a generic Titan, with a mixture of Chaos/Imperial weapon options would be far more fitting for the Black Legion, and the other Titan variants could then be fielded in the Cult Lists.

This would be quite a significant change, but if people are feeling fairly radical, and we want consistency between list formation and background, then why not?
Author:  Dave [ Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Banelord Titan
Rename it if you want, but stats and points wise its fine. I've seen it pulls its weight in 4k games. In 3k it's easy to ignore/hide from.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Wed Dec 23, 2009 4:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Banelord Titan
On the name, I view all three Titan choices available to the Black Legion as rare, Khorne Titans, and not the 'typical' Titan as seen everywhere else in the 40k background.

So there's nothing wrong with the Black Legion Titan being the Banelord, etc. as long as you remember that most other Chaos armies will have 'standard configuration' (or at least closer to it) allies.
Author:  Steve54 [ Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Banelord Titan
Quote: (frogbear @ Dec. 23 2009, 07:25 )

Ok, out with my trumpet....

Banelord has always been a Khorne Titan. In fact, under the initial appearance of the Banelord, no other legion could use it other than Khornate marines.

So my changes: Remove it from the list and let's put our heads together in taking a standard Warlord Titan and making it a Chaos monster for the Black Legion. We have this opportunity to make the change, so let's do it.

Edit: I would also like to add, to all those people that say it should stay, then why not replace it with a Nurgle, or Tzeentch or Slaanesh titan instead of the Khorne one? What is the difference? As for modelling and what minis are available, a standard Imperial Titan is readily available for sale, as is a Nurgle titan which is possibly the easiest scratch-build to make. I cannot see why the Khorne legion should have to share it's titan when the other cults do not.

At this stage I'm not in favour of completely changing the Black Legion titans - firstly i don't think it necessary. The titan support for the BL can be from Legio X a Khornate Legion with titans specialised for fighting on Cadia, the World Eaters can have a Banelord form Legio Y a different Khornate Legion.

Also I'm not keen on drastically altering the weaponry on a unit a lot of people have spent a great deal of effort converting.
Author:  Steve54 [ Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Banelord Titan
Regarding the Banelord I'll leave this thread up for a few more days to see if there is any will to change the unit for balance reasons - otherwise the banelord will stay as it is.
Author:  frogbear [ Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Banelord Titan
Quote: (Steve54 @ Dec. 24 2009, 02:16 )

Regarding the Banelord I'll leave this thread up for a few more days to see if there is any will to change the unit for balance reasons - otherwise the banelord will stay as it is.

That's a shame that there will not be a change considered. Even with a majority stating that it should.   :down:

I just see it as our one chance to make the change. If this is not it, then it will not change for the next 5-10 years.

The only reason Black Legion have a Banelord is because GW is lazy. There is no other reason for it.
Author:  hello_dave [ Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Banelord Titan
I'm actually with Steve on this one.

The list has been in a half done state for years now, personally I'd like to see a balanced version finished....
Author:  frogbear [ Wed Dec 23, 2009 9:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Banelord Titan
Quote: (hello_dave @ Dec. 24 2009, 04:36 )

The list has been in a half done state for years now, personally I'd like to see a balanced version finished....

How does changing the name or providing another balanced Warlord effect the balance or completion of this list?    :rock:
Author:  hello_dave [ Wed Dec 23, 2009 9:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Banelord Titan
Not wanting to start a flame war, I think it'd be the thin end of the wedge...
Much simpler (and realistic) to balance what's there imho
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